The "Swedish K" submachine gun in Vietnam?

[The Basket]

The 5.56 is often seen as weedy whearas the 9mm is a shot stopper.
But I have seen, not first hand, the mess 5.56 or similar projectiles can do.

 

[bobbysocks]

the k was made by S&W as the model 76....and was still being used way after Nam. when I was dealing arms in the mid 90s they were available to law enforcement and class 3 dealers like me. I knew a former SFer whose arm of choice was an old M2 carbine. since the US was in places where official we didn't have troops ( Cambodia and Laos...aka Daniel Boone and Prairie Fire ) having a weapon that didn't point directly back to the US was convenient.

 

[tyrodtom]

I've seen M-16 wounds also.
In basic they were telling us a hit in the lower leg, ankle, would shatter the leg bones clear to the hip. My BS detector got set off.
Surely none of you are seriously trying to suggest that could happen ?

 

[The Basket]

Dunno. I don't have anywhere near enough medical training to suggest either way.
However every wound is different so each has to be treated on its merits.
But if an elderly patient is suffering from osteoporosis then it's possible I suppose.
But top of my head no. A rifle wound to the foot or ankle should not shatter bones to the hip. Although what a mess! So I would suspect typical army bull poop.

 

[The Basket]

Simple blowback smgs in 9mm parabellum was pretty much ubiquitous so why copy the K? And wouldn't that need some kind of license from the Swedes?

 

[mikewint]

Not hardly. Perhaps 4 or so inches of totally destroyed bone. Soft tissue damage is considerable as the bullet tumbles every which way.
This is a X-ray of a lower leg hit by a 5.56 round. As you can see the tibia and fibula are severely damaged. I won't post any soft tissue unless and until the mods OK it. They are truly horrendous, the pics, NOT the mods!

 

[soulezoo]

Mike, would you happen to have a photo of the guy shot in the leg in the PI at close range with 5.56?

That was a horrendous wound and nearly took his whole leg off.

That said, no small arms caliber is a death ray and many instances of 5.56 making a tiny entrance and exit wound where the bad guy didn't even know he was shot. The same anecdotal stories can be found for 9mm or .45 acp as well. The results of anything are often unpredictable.
Unless it was .50 BMG... then all bets are off.

 

[mikewint]

I do but this is a site visited by many different ages and or sensibilities so unless and until I receive permission from a mod I will not do so. The little 5.56 does massive damage as it tumbles its way through the body. On the other hand a leaf can deflect it

 

[soulezoo]

I do but this is a site visited by many different ages and or sensibilities so unless and until I receive permission from a mod I will not do so. The little 5.56 does massive damage as it tumbles its way through the body. On the other hand a leaf can deflect it

Oh, I know this and we agree totally. I was just wondering if you had the photo-- and I thought you may. For those who have doubts about what the round CAN do, well, that picture says a lot. And it's as ghastly as any small arms wound to the extremities I've seen.

 

[mikewint]

I was initially assigned to the 8th Field Hospital Nha Trang and hated every minute of it. I didn't spend all that time an effort in Basic Medic and Expert Medical to be essentially an orderly doing scut-work the nurses didn't want to do. When volunteers were needed to take government services out to the village level I was first in line. Working up in the northern highlands with the Yards and Nungs was the best time of my life

 

[The Basket]

I guess this is a military chat with a lot of ex military but I would have to say that showing pic of severe wounds is just not the ticket. Maybe it should be and maybe we need to see what war is cos we don't because the showing of guts and gore is censored on TV but nah.
Plenty of internet shows that so maybe watch the gore there. Don't want little Timmy Toddler throwing his corn flakes up over reality.
But still hear how 5.56 isn't powerful when scientific says it's plenty enough.

 

[Shortround6]

There is power and there is reliable power. The 5.56 is plenty powerful if everything goes right (and is used at appropriate distances). However if things go a bit wrong then then 5.56 sometimes comes up lacking. Since anything short of a major artillery round may come up lacking given the right set set of circumstances the arguments are over what ratio of failures people are willing to tolerate or what set/s of circumstances are judged too far out of the ordinary to factor in.

 

[soulezoo]

I guess this is a military chat with a lot of ex military but I would have to say that showing pic of severe wounds is just not the ticket. Maybe it should be and maybe we need to see what war is cos we don't because the showing of guts and gore is censored on TV but nah.
Plenty of internet shows that so maybe watch the gore there. Don't want little Timmy Toddler throwing his corn flakes up over reality.
But still hear how 5.56 isn't powerful when scientific says it's plenty enough.

You have to realize there's a difference between how people think about something and the reality. The fact is the human body is not meant to withstand absorbing a high speed projectile. Really bad things can happen. However, it is never predictable. Why one guy can be shot numerous times and live (and still fight even) where others perish with a .22 to an extremity.
Scientific and medical research are not complete. Laboratory controlled environment tests for repeatability of the result can give an apples to apples comparison between cartridges and projectiles with telling results. But that alone can never duplicate the infinite variable of real world. Hence, wildly different outcomes. I remember hearing the story (and later the pictures) of a guy that took a 9mm slug to the forehead at 30 ft from the shooter. It hit square and deflected around between the skull and skin and came to rest behind his ear. Now how many times is that going to happen vs a nice new hole in the head?

Anyway... way OT. Back to the Swedish SMG. That's a fascinating gun.

 

[The Basket]

Gunshot wounds have so many variables and the list is endless. A rabbit hole but if you don't use a scientific method then what your left with is anecdotes of some guy down the pub who saw 50 BMG bounce off a dog at 20 yards. Ad infinitum. I often think of the change of the Japanese from 6.5 to 7.7 and think was it actually a big deal because 6.5 was even criticized in the Russo Japan war in 1904 and any advantage of 6.5 was thrown away for some perceived lack of power just because your target didn't turn to vapour. Be interested to know if the Japanese did a real study or just listened to some guy in the cookhouse.
The Swedish K is a blowback 9mm and unless it was genuinely better I can't see it been worthwhile to copy and build clones as this would take time when other SMGs were available.

 

[tyrodtom]

The Seals and S.F. liked the Swedish K, It doesn't have to make sense to us now.
But by the time S&W tooled up for production to satisfy them, they were no longer interested.

I've got a book by Timothy J. Mullin in which he test about 30 different SMGs, from the earliest Bergmann M1918, to the Heckler & Koch MP5. He test both Swedish K M45, and the S&W M76, evidently S&W did a poor job of copying the M45, or he had a bad example. He was barely enthused with the M45, but was just plain disappointed in the M76.

On a side note, his favorite WW2 era SMG was the Owen.

 

[mikewint]

The wound pic I had in mind was a upper leg in and out but the 5.56 had yawed and tumbled quite a bit. The cavitation and hydrostatic shock had ruptured several major vessels and he had bled out in a minute or so. So no guts or gore of course that's always an opinion.
As Shortrounds posted the 5.56 has plenty of kill power but its BIG advantage is the size/weight of its cartridges. A 12ga shotgun with 00 buck and an old M-14 would/could have been more usable in many situations BUT would you like to be the one carrying 1000 rounds of 7.62 or 200-300 rounds of 12ga through the jungle? The selling point of the M-16 was its weight load

 

[Zipper730]

View attachment 494686

I assume with an injury like that if you didn't die, you'd probably have to amputate the leg right?

 

[The Basket]

Modern medicine is different.
So Vietnam era to today different.
But either way his football career is probably gonna take a nosedive.