Well they might have used that as-well, I don't know, but I do know that the k98k was widely used up until the mid late 90's, I have a picture of one used by the Isreali snipers below:
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Well they might have used that as-well, I don't know, but I do know that the k98k was widely used up until the mid late 90's, I have a picture of one used by the Isreali snipers below:
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Interesting data but I am sure you would agree, somewhat misleading. As this is a discussion about military rifles and loads of WW2, quoting figures using modern powders with ultra maximum loads with excessive chamber pressures which should only be used in rifles and actions in premium condition is not relevant. The loads quoted in the source you provided are in a 29.1 inch barrel. Since most of the rifles used by the Nazis in WW2 would not necessarily meet the definition of premium condition and since the standard length of the issue rifle barrel was slightly longer than 23 inches, the service load was as I noted earlier. Also quoting ballistics from a load used by the LW, I find rather disingenuous since that load was not used in the infantry rifle. I, of course could follow suit by quoting from pg. 133, table 12 of "America's One Hundred Thousand" where the load for the 30 cal MG in American aircraft is a 220 gr. bullet at 2660 fps MV.
Well then Renrich did you know that the Germans used better powders during WW2 ? The Germans were firing 154 gr bullets at 2900 fps while the US were firing 150 gr bullets at 2700 fps.
And as for the LW ammunition, like I said it was used by the infantry with no problems, but mostly in MG's and by Snipers, the K98k easily handles such loads. The K98k btw has a 23.61 inch barrel, and from this barrel it will fire a 198 gr bullet at 2880 fps, without any pressure signs.
As for he American MG's firing a 220 gr bullet at 2660 fps, well this is new to me and way above any magnum load today so I find that hard to believe as American powders weren't that good back then. Was it a round nosed bullet or a Spitzer ? The powder type would be nice to know as-well.
At any rate today with modern powders the 8x57 is always faster with projectiles of 200gr or heavier, while they are the same at about 185 gr and the 30.06 being slightly faster with lighter projectiles.
And as for the LW ammunition, like I said it was used by the infantry with no problems, but mostly in MG's and by Snipers, the K98k easily handles such loads. The K98k btw has a 23.61 inch barrel, and from this barrel it will fire a 198 gr bullet at 2880 fps, without any pressure signs.
As for he American MG's firing a 220 gr bullet at 2660 fps, well this is new to me and way above any magnum load today so I find that hard to believe as American powders weren't that good back then. Was it a round nosed bullet or a Spitzer ? The powder type would be nice to know as-well.
At any rate today with modern powders the 8x57 is always faster with projectiles of 200gr or heavier, while they are the same at about 185 gr and the 30.06 being slightly faster with lighter projectiles.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Well, of course I should have known that the Nazis had better gun powder than anything the allies had since everything the Nazis had was superior. Thank the Lord for the Nazi inferior leadership and for their decision to send their troops into the field with an old fashioned bolt action rifle.
If you doubt what I'm saying research it yourself Renrich, and spare me the stupid remarks and implication that I'm a Nazi sympathizer of some sort. I don't call you a stupid Yank, or pro-american or anything like that do I ??
The Germans simply produced some more potent powder types, not a significant advance and not that it matters much if anything, but just how it is.
Glider
Captain
Re the quality of Ammunition
In July 1944 The German General of Infantry reported 'The normal Sm.E. ammunition allows no shooting of precision over 3-400 meters as must be demanded of Sharpshooters as these and greater ranges. Until now it was possible to equip the sharpshooter with select s.S. ammunition which is only available in small quantaties, or not at all.
He then went on to demand the the production of specialist ammunition for Sharpshooters which came on stream in early 1945
Compared this to the British situation. The British were happy that the quality control of their standard type VII ammunition was sufficient for all purposes, although it must be said that the men tended to prefer one manufacturer over another and most went for American manufacturers.
source is The Military Sniper since 1914 ISBN-10 1-84176-141-9
This would indicate that German ammunition was worse than allied ammuition although closer to British ammo than American.
In July 1944 The German General of Infantry reported 'The normal Sm.E. ammunition allows no shooting of precision over 3-400 meters as must be demanded of Sharpshooters as these and greater ranges. Until now it was possible to equip the sharpshooter with select s.S. ammunition which is only available in small quantaties, or not at all.
He then went on to demand the the production of specialist ammunition for Sharpshooters which came on stream in early 1945
Compared this to the British situation. The British were happy that the quality control of their standard type VII ammunition was sufficient for all purposes, although it must be said that the men tended to prefer one manufacturer over another and most went for American manufacturers.
source is The Military Sniper since 1914 ISBN-10 1-84176-141-9
This would indicate that German ammunition was worse than allied ammuition although closer to British ammo than American.
I don't know where that book gets its info from or anything but some of it is true;
The S.m.E. round is the round designed to be fired by the MG's Glider, it's an AP round firing a completely similar projectile to the S.m.K. except optimized for MG's. The S.m.E. round wasn't meant to be fired through the K98k as the K98k was optimized for the s.S. round, so obviuosly firing the S.m.E through the K98k you wont get the best results.
However also note that Snipers wouldn't want to switch between different ammo types as their rifle scopes were designed calibrated for the s.S. Patr.. German Sniper scopes had built in range adjustment, with range adjusted in 50m increments, and this was based on the ballistics of the s.S. Patr.. Now firing s.S. V-patr. wasn't a problem as one just had to keep in mind that the trajectory was flatter, however using MG ammunition such as the S.m.E. round with different projectiles powder charges would affect accuracy as both the rifle scope were designed calibrated for an entirely different round projectile.
Next there was no "Specialized" Sniper ammo, the German Snipers however sometimes "borrowed" high power s.S. V-patr. from the LW to gain an extra 150m of effective range. So when the quote refers to specialized ammo for snipers it refers to the production of s.S. Patr. for Snipers only in 45 which otherwise had ceased.
And as for the the quality of German rounds (s.S., S.m.E., S.m.K. etc etc) it's excellent (I have these rounds myself, they're all better made than equal time period US British ammo). Esp. German tracers are very well made.
The German standard sS (schweres Spitzgeschoß/heavy pointed bullet) ball bullet was 35.3 mm long (1.389 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made.[2] It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed about 12.8 grams (197 grains). It offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and ballistic performance of all standard rifle balls used in World War II.
German tracer bullets were the best put out by any country, beautifully streamlined and with excellent ballistics. German armor piercers were also very good, being very stable and accurate at long ranges.
The most accurate rifle round of WW2 was the s.S. Patr., and it was therefore also prefered by Snipers. However it is true that this round as in short supply by mid 1944, and this did prompt an increase in production of it for use by Snipers only.
I recommend reading Peter Senich's book on the German sniper which notes this as-well.
The S.m.E. round is the round designed to be fired by the MG's Glider, it's an AP round firing a completely similar projectile to the S.m.K. except optimized for MG's. The S.m.E. round wasn't meant to be fired through the K98k as the K98k was optimized for the s.S. round, so obviuosly firing the S.m.E through the K98k you wont get the best results.
However also note that Snipers wouldn't want to switch between different ammo types as their rifle scopes were designed calibrated for the s.S. Patr.. German Sniper scopes had built in range adjustment, with range adjusted in 50m increments, and this was based on the ballistics of the s.S. Patr.. Now firing s.S. V-patr. wasn't a problem as one just had to keep in mind that the trajectory was flatter, however using MG ammunition such as the S.m.E. round with different projectiles powder charges would affect accuracy as both the rifle scope were designed calibrated for an entirely different round projectile.
Next there was no "Specialized" Sniper ammo, the German Snipers however sometimes "borrowed" high power s.S. V-patr. from the LW to gain an extra 150m of effective range. So when the quote refers to specialized ammo for snipers it refers to the production of s.S. Patr. for Snipers only in 45 which otherwise had ceased.
And as for the the quality of German rounds (s.S., S.m.E., S.m.K. etc etc) it's excellent (I have these rounds myself, they're all better made than equal time period US British ammo). Esp. German tracers are very well made.
The German standard sS (schweres Spitzgeschoß/heavy pointed bullet) ball bullet was 35.3 mm long (1.389 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made.[2] It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed about 12.8 grams (197 grains). It offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and ballistic performance of all standard rifle balls used in World War II.
German tracer bullets were the best put out by any country, beautifully streamlined and with excellent ballistics. German armor piercers were also very good, being very stable and accurate at long ranges.
The most accurate rifle round of WW2 was the s.S. Patr., and it was therefore also prefered by Snipers. However it is true that this round as in short supply by mid 1944, and this did prompt an increase in production of it for use by Snipers only.
I recommend reading Peter Senich's book on the German sniper which notes this as-well.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
Not trying to start any quarrels or anything, just had a question. When everyone starts pulling info out of various books, and when the info counteracts each other poeples statements, how do you know which book is correct and which one is not? If one book states ammo #1 is better, and another book states ammo #2 is better, how do you go about proving which one is the correct statement?
It seems that everyone is of the opinion that their book has the correct info, how do you solve the problem? In reading through this topic, it seems various people have listed different info from several books to support their views. Just curious.
It seems that everyone is of the opinion that their book has the correct info, how do you solve the problem? In reading through this topic, it seems various people have listed different info from several books to support their views. Just curious.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Not sources. Conclusions. A 154gr bullet at 2900ft/s vs a 150gr bullet at 2700ft/s does not logically lead to inferior powder. That's certainly a stretch.
As an avid reloader and collector of the guns in question, I find this thread... well... fascinating.
As an avid reloader and collector of the guns in question, I find this thread... well... fascinating.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Okay. It's all good.
The 7.92mm 154gr vs 150gr 7.62mm comparison was merely a crude form of evidence but it is the one which stands out the most as the difference was completely because of a different higher pressure powder type. But again like I said it wasn't a significant step forward.
I can provide the powder descriptions if necessary, I have original German charts showing the different powder types used, the size of the powder grains/flakes and the weight of the charges and the name.
I can provide the powder descriptions if necessary, I have original German charts showing the different powder types used, the size of the powder grains/flakes and the weight of the charges and the name.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
No that's alright. We're good to go.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
Ok, maybe I should have said conclusions. Good point Matt308.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Messy, I was not criticizing sources. Rather, I saw nothing that indicated that A 154gr bullet at 2900ft/s vs a 150gr bullet at 2700ft/s is a logical step to inferior powder. Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. Perhaps it was cartridge case wall thickness. Perhaps it was breech max pressure. Perhaps it was safety margins for loading deltas. Perhaps it was a weapon's inherent design limitation (gas operating pressures).
But to suggest that a common bullet weight and different velocity is in and of itself equal to "inferior" powder development is asinine.
But to suggest that a common bullet weight and different velocity is in and of itself equal to "inferior" powder development is asinine.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
You guys are way over my head on all this. I was just trying to make a comment about how threads susch as this one seem to go back and forth between guys, and nothing ever (or very seldom) gets settled to a point where one might say, "You know, you are right, the Enfield, (or Muaser) is the better rifle."
I just enjoy reading and learning about WW2. I am humbled to be on here and to learn so much from everyone.
I just enjoy reading and learning about WW2. I am humbled to be on here and to learn so much from everyone.
parsifal
Colonel
Messy
It is a rare event for a topic to reach a point of equilibrium. There is a lot of expeience in the forums, but at some point you have to say to yourself"okay, im satisfied, i can reach a conclusion on this"
The whole point of these forums is to learn from each other, The opinions expressed are just that, and all reaasonable posts should be respected. The only time that they should be disregarded is when there is no real knowledge being displayed,, like the other day when some idiot just came on line to say "Heil Hitler"
It is a rare event for a topic to reach a point of equilibrium. There is a lot of expeience in the forums, but at some point you have to say to yourself"okay, im satisfied, i can reach a conclusion on this"
The whole point of these forums is to learn from each other, The opinions expressed are just that, and all reaasonable posts should be respected. The only time that they should be disregarded is when there is no real knowledge being displayed,, like the other day when some idiot just came on line to say "Heil Hitler"
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