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Cheers Joe! Also, with all this electronics...how long before we're back to square one, when it'll be all up to, well, guns and the pilots abilities, because the radar and the missiles won't see the target....:lol:
 
Cheers Joe! Also, with all this electronics...how long before we're back to square one, when it'll be all up to, well, guns and the pilots abilities, because the radar and the missiles won't see the target....:lol:

Very true - it happened in Vietnam with the MiG-17.
 
Not really - I think it would take years if not decades to see the -22 or -35 being effectively countered.
I don't know what you base those assertions on, the F-22 is only "superior" so long as its stealth remains in full effect, should the stealth be compromised (weather conditions could be one cause, think rain) then she would have a problem. The fact is that "stealth" only decreases detectability, it doesn't make you invisible and once she switches on her radar or get close enough to an enemy aircraft…

Don't get me wrong, she is impressive in many ways but I'm affraid she may prove to be more window dressing. I'd actually go so far as to say that any modern combat aircraft is obsolete as soon as it enters service, not so much design wise as countermeasure wise, today's tech is moving in a very rapid pace and also to a much lower cost, which means that you could get away with a more conventional (or, if you will, "simpler") design yet with more than adequate performance whilst saving money in the process.


just my 2cents


//Eric
 
I don't know what you base those assertions on, the F-22 is only "superior" so long as its stealth remains in full effect, should the stealth be compromised (weather conditions could be one cause, think rain) then she would have a problem. The fact is that "stealth" only decreases detectability, it doesn't make you invisible and once she switches on her radar or get close enough to an enemy aircraft…
The F-22's stealth capability is just one part of the aircraft's superiority - unlike first and second generation Stealth aircraft, rain won't necessarily compromise the F-22s RCS. Additionally the RCS material is a lot more durable than what was found on the F-117A and the B-2
Don't get me wrong, she is impressive in many ways but I'm affraid she may prove to be more window dressing. I'd actually go so far as to say that any modern combat aircraft is obsolete as soon as it enters service, not so much design wise as countermeasure wise, today's tech is moving in a very rapid pace and also to a much lower cost, which means that you could get away with a more conventional (or, if you will, "simpler") design yet with more than adequate performance whilst saving money in the process.
While I could agree with that, the obsolescence of a modern combat aircraft is also dependent on what your potential adversary is developing. The closest aircraft in operational capability is the Typhoon. Aside from that I see no other close competitors.

Its funny though - I could also remember hearing folks say the same thing in the early 70s when the F-15 is being developed.
 
This sucks. I saw a news report on FOX that just sickened me. There were several politicians that decided that the F-22 wasn't needed because it hadn't flown any combat missions. These morons completely miss the point. The best weapon is the kind you never have to use. The F-22 is a symbol of American excellence, and a deterent against aggressive action toward the US. I think we should start a petition to save it. :evil:





Orlando Sentinel February 22, 2008

Pentagon F-22 cuts may be felt in Orlando area
Lockheed Martin says production could be halted by the end of this year on the stealth fighter jets.
In-Depth Coverage By Richard Burnett

Proposed Pentagon spending cuts on the F-22 stealth fighter jet have stirred questions about the program's long-term future, including some key work being done by contractors in Central Florida, company officials said Thursday.

The Defense Department's latest budget plan for fiscal 2009 contains a significant shortfall for the F-22, which could trigger a shutdown of production this year, according to prime contractor Lockheed Martin Corp.

Though the final assembly is done in Marietta, Ga., Lockheed Martin's Orlando-based missiles and simulation-training units also produce critical systems for the F-22 Raptor. Melbourne-based Harris Corp. is another big subcontractor, and the F-22 work also involves numerous smaller suppliers in the region.

Overall, hundreds of high-tech jobs in Central Florida and thousands of jobs in 44 states are tied to the multibillion-dollar F-22 program. Including all contracts, it is the largest single defense program in Florida, according to local economic development agencies.

But the Pentagon has now axed the number of F-22 stealth fighters it plans to buy and cut back certain "long-lead" supply money for the next several years. The cuts were part of the Bush administration's proposed 2009 budget introduced this month.

Lockheed Martin officials say the proposal could cripple efforts to complete the work.

"Among other things, the budget does not include the advance money we need to keep our supply chain in place," said Rob Fuller, spokesman for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, based in Fort Worth, Texas. "Without that, our production lines would be shut down by the end of 2008. And since there's nothing in the budget for shutdown costs, this program overall is really in limbo right now."

Until the funding issues are resolved, however, it will be business as usual for the F-22 program, the company said.

For example, Lockheed was awarded a $183 million Air Force contract this week to provide maintenance, logistics and other support services to the F-22 fleet.

That could also mean additional work for Lockheed's Missiles Fire Control unit based in south Orlando, officials said. The missiles unit is building the F-22's missile detection system.

Lockheed's training technology unit in east Orlando produces certain flight-simulator training and courseware for F-22 pilots, who train at Tyndale Air Force Base in the Panhandle.

Harris Corp.'s Melbourne operation builds the F-22's high-speed fiber-optic cockpit communications system. The company has received hundreds of millions of dollars in F-22 related contracts since the program began in the early 1990s.

But the F-22 has been a controversial effort from the start. It is the costliest fighter jet in military history, at about $175 million per copy, budget documents show. The Pentagon has cut billions of dollars and hundreds of aircraft in the program in the past 15 years.

The current budget supports production of 183 F-22s, down from the original request of about 700.

Air Force officials are still pushing for money that would produce 380 F-22 fighter jets to replace the aging F-15 Eagle fleet, which had to be grounded last year because of technical problems.

Critics of the F-22 argue that the military should speed up funding and production of the Joint Strike Fighter -- another Lockheed program -- that is a less costly, next-generation aircraft. Critics say it is wasteful to pour billions into two fighter jet programs at the same time.

But defense expert John Pike said it is not likely that F-22 production will shut down any time soon.

"I think Lockheed and the F-22 supporters are going to argue that the production line should remain open at least one more year so the next president will be able to make the decision on what will be done," said Pike, president of Globalsecurity.org, a defense research firm in Washington. "And I think they have enough friends on Capitol Hill that will make that argument work for them."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


© Copyright 2008, Orlando Sentinel

i will hurt them so much if that happends
 
The F-22's stealth capability is just one part of the aircraft's superiority - unlike first and second generation Stealth aircraft, rain won't necessarily compromise the F-22s RCS. Additionally the RCS material is a lot more durable than what was found on the F-117A and the B-2
True that stealth is one of the aircrafts abilities and with that comes also the tradeoffs, as with any other design, conventional or otherwise. Regarding combat conditions they are very seldom perfect since battle is not a static affair, neither the weather, things happen.

While I could agree with that, the obsolescence of a modern combat aircraft is also dependent on what your potential adversary is developing. The closest aircraft in operational capability is the Typhoon. Aside from that I see no other close competitors.
True, but development during peace time opposed to war time is different; you are not as hard pressed on time. In a war situation (should it drag out over a long period of time) things would quickly change, and history has showed on that on more then one occasion, people tend to increase their ingenuity and results tend to follow.

Its funny though - I could also remember hearing folks say the same thing in the early 70s when the F-15 is being developed.
I was never involved in such discussions myself and will refrain from commenting on it, as such, though I hope that you didn't try to infer that I would have fitted/or/fit in that category as based on my thoughts around the F-22.


We will just wait and see what happens to her, and again; darn she is a beauty!


//Eric
 
The F-22's stealth capability is just one part of the aircraft's superiority - unlike first and second generation Stealth aircraft, rain won't necessarily compromise the F-22s RCS. Additionally the RCS material is a lot more durable than what was found on the F-117A and the B-2
While I could agree with that, the obsolescence of a modern combat aircraft is also dependent on what your potential adversary is developing. The closest aircraft in operational capability is the Typhoon. Aside from that I see no other close competitors.

Its funny though - I could also remember hearing folks say the same thing in the early 70s when the F-15 is being developed.

Hawker_Typhoon_3_ExCC.jpg
.................?
 
I'd rather go with the more modern "version" and some meteor ramjet missiles to be honest, whilst your at it; give me some of that A 1 paint too.

Nice pick of that classic Clay, very nice.



Ps:
I have to confess however (but don't tell anyone please) that I have a thing for French birds, just can't help it.


//Eric
 
True that stealth is one of the aircrafts abilities and with that comes also the tradeoffs, as with any other design, conventional or otherwise. Regarding combat conditions they are very seldom perfect since battle is not a static affair, neither the weather, things happen.
Agree

True, but development during peace time opposed to war time is different; you are not as hard pressed on time. In a war situation (should it drag out over a long period of time) things would quickly change, and history has showed on that on more then one occasion, people tend to increase their ingenuity and results tend to follow.
and agree...

I was never involved in such discussions myself and will refrain from commenting on it, as such, though I hope that you didn't try to infer that I would have fitted/or/fit in that category as based on my thoughts around the F-22.
Not really - but in the 1970s there were many critics wondering why we were developing the F-14 and F-15, still clinging to the old "obsolete air-to-air fighter theory when in the 60s, Vietnam and the Israeli-Arab conflicts showed us differently.
We will just wait and see what happens to her, and again; darn she is a beauty!


//Eric

And agree!

Hawker_Typhoon_3_ExCC.jpg
.................?

No................

GD1758409@February-2006---Itali-9450.jpg
 
i hope that if it does go off it will be like the b-1
 

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