Thoughts about the F7F Tigercat.

[Ivan1GFP]

Well, Mr. Rod Lewis owns TWO Tigercats and races them at Reno ... and goes pretty darned fast. Ask the people he beats! He KNOWS what the boopk says for the Remo altitude and KNOWS what his do there.

Thanks for posting photographs.

The point I was trying to make was that to prove you can beat the book specifications with military equipment installed, you would be flying with self sealing fuel tanks, ballasted for armament, ammunition and equipment weight differences such as the old heavy radios.
To make a speed run at the atitudes required for maximum level speed, you would need to get up to 25-30,000 feet which means you would be on oxygen.
To get the maximum engine output, you would be running at War Emergency Power which would require Water Injection.

I just can't imagine someone willing to do this to a 60-70 year old airframe with very expensive engines.

At low altitude, even the Flugwerk FW 190As with their Shvetsov radials will go about the same speed as the originals or perhaps even better but I don't think they will beat the originals in maximum level speed at 20,000 feet.

- Ivan.

 

[GregP]

Nobody races ballasted for original armament. To do so would be ludicrous in the extreme.

But not all Reno racers are lighter than the original.

Take Race 232. It started life a a Hawker Sea Fury FB 11 and was turned into a racer. It has a formula 1 canopy and the wing fold mechanism is gone except for the locking pins, so wing fold is a manual operation now. The oil cooler is gone and leading edge is fared over to match the rest of the leading edge.

But, it also has an oii boil-off system and 120 gallons of waster methanol to haul around, and the R-3350 has a bigger, heavier supoercharger than stock. So it's very probably about a wash, weight wise, with a stock Sea Fury FB 11 without guns ... but it is a whole LOT faster.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

A modern Unlimited class racer can't really compare to an aircraft in military configuration.
When you start upgrading engines, superchargers, etc, what you get in performance is no real indication of what the original would do. I believe that is what we were discussing: what kind of performance was the original Tigercat capable of.

Besides, even if the aircraft were capable of 400 mph at sea level, it should go quite a lot faster at altitude. I would be curious what these unlimited class racers were able to do at altitude, but I doublt anyone would ever bother testing at altitude.

There are quite a few aircraft that are probably a bit faster in military form than their "book numbers" claim. Most Japanese fighters, the P-38J/L, the FW 190A/F/G come to mind.

- Ivan.

 

[GregP]

Hi Ivan,

Rod Lewis' F7F's are bone stock with stock overhauled R-2800's. His even have the gun ports and disabled guns installed. I only know of one warbird with functional guns (and one more on the way).

Most of the planes racing in the Bronze class are stock warbirds, some with and some without guns. Most without have the gun ports fared over. Otherwise they are stock with some modern avionics installed.

So there are quite a few STOCK warbirds running at Reno. The dedicated racers are all mostly in the Gold class and were highly modified many years ago with only incremental cleanups in recent years. The accent is on the race engines.

Ed Maloney's P-51 Spam Can makes stock book numbers for a P-51D and stock book power settings. It is not especially finished or especially cleaned up and runs stock engine and fittings … and makes stock numbers. Steve Hinton's bird is a little faster but is essentially stock and makes only a bit better than stock, not much.

Funny as it may seem, warbirds licensed in other than the experimental exhibition class are mostly VERY stock or they wouldn't get the certification. The experimental exhibition birds are the heavily modified ones and aren't seen much except around Reno race time … which is NOW.

Steve just left for Reno this afternoon about an hour and a half ago in the CT-133 pace plane. Go Stevo Hinton Jr. in Voodoo! We're hoping for another first place, of course.

 

[swampyankee]

Regardless of whether the Tigercat could physically carry a torpedo, it wasn't really a torpedo bomber unless the pilots received training and practiced in that role. Greg would probably know if that was done at all.

 

[grampi]

Go Stevo Hinton Jr. in Voodoo! We're hoping for another first place, of course.

It's doubtful he'll win in Voodoo...it simply isn't as fast as Strega...then again, none of the other racers are, and the only one that was (Dago Red) is no longer racing...

 

[GregP]

Actually Voodoo is almost exactly as fast as Strega. Lap times were virtually identical for best lap, but Stevo flies a level consisten turn and most of the former Voodoo pilots tended to baloon up in the turns and lost speed which they them partly made up on the short straights.

If Voodoo doesn't break it SHOULD be a very good race.

Of course, Rare Bear has enogh cooling air now and should be able to run at high power levels for the whole race for the first time in 2 - 3 years. I'm really looking forward to it, but this may be the swan song for the races.

The Reno Air Racing Association (RARA) has taken a solid event and gotten so greedy that they have driven almost everyone off. Who wants to go racing when it always costs you MUCH more than you bring home even if you win?

The guys who REALLY want to race will find a way to get together and do it quietly in some deserted area, but perhpas not much more at Reno. It hasn't been about racing ever since RARA took over the races ... just about the money RARA can bring in.

Still 3 of the fastest piston-powered propeller-driven fighters that ever flew are going to do it at LEAST one last time. If they falter at all Race 232 is there and capable, and Hoot Gibson knows how to get it done if allowed to do so.

The F7F could, in fact, carry a torpedo, but I am not aware that they ever practiced it or in fact were tasked with a torpedo attack. It was a fighter with auxiliary ground attack capability and was flown as a fighter, night fighter, photo recon, and interdiction aircraft during operations as far as I know at this time.

 

[Milosh]

Nobody races ballasted for original armament. To do so would be ludicrous in the extreme.

How do they get the correct C/G?

 

[GregP]

There is a range of CG in % MAC.

When they remove the guns in the Tgercat, the center of mass of the guns is VERY close to the CG, so it isn't much of an issue. They usually move the batteries forward and add a bit of lead. The receivers of the guns (most of the mass) are close to the CG, so the lead is less than it otherwise would be.

Lead plates are added in all F-86's when the guns are missing. They add the minumum necessary to bring the CG into the proper place depending on the particular dash number. Most warbirds with guns in the nose have to have lead added.

For our Bell YP-59A with guns well forward, we'll have to add about 800 pounds or slightly more to the nose to compensate for the lack of guns, maybe as much as 1,000 pounds depending on the final airframe balance when we are done (we are also adding auxiliary fuel tanks the original never had).

 

[Milosh]

The center of mass is only for the wing guns. There is still the 300+lb of .50" in the nose to compensate for.

 

[GregP]

The Tigercat's gun mass is located about where the engines are, not in the far front of the nose. They do not cause too much of an issue, Milosh. Look at the pic below.

The MG receivers are located right about where the red propeller line is just in front of the pilot's feet. Moving batteries does a lot and adding a little weight farther foward does the rest. Not too difficult really.

 

[Shortround6]

The 20mm guns and ammo boxes are mounted pretty far back in the wing, just forward of the flaps. Distance from the CG may not be quite as great as as the .50 cal guns but being behind the CG helps balance weight taken out in front of the CG.

 

[GregP]

The wing cannons and fuselage MG just about cancel each other out, as you imply. This was one HARD-hitting bird with four 20 mm cannon and four 50-cal MG, none of which require synchronization.

The presence or absence of lead depends on the fitout of a restored Tigercat. If you are careful when you bring a Tigercat back to life, you can come away without any lead balance. It depends on who is doing the restoration. I don't believe the one Steve Hinton flew at our airshow had any lead in it at all. But I also think there may be one or two out there with some lead balance weight. If I recall correctly, there are about 8 of these things flying with two more in restioration now. We are doing one and so is WestPAC in Colorado.

Either way, the plane is a bit lighter than a stock mission-ready Tigercat. If I had one, I'd take out the armor plating, too. I can only dream about having that decision.

 

[pinsog]

GregP
Would you care to speculate what would happen if an F7F Tigercat met an F4U-4 Corsair headon at 20,000 feet, equal pilots, and began a dogfight? I know the F7F is fast and climbs well, but how does it roll and turn compaired to a big single engine like a Corsair?

 

[GregP]

I would have a hard time deciding. If they met head on, the Corsair might be down right away, what with the Tigercat's cannons and MG all on centerline. But that is speculative. If there weren't a quick victory, the climb is about a wash, the speed is quite close, depending on models, the Corsair would have a better roll rate, but the Tigercat certainly has armament all over the F4U.

I'd lean toward the Tigercat if the Tigercat pilot was a good shot and lean toward the Corsair in an extended dogfight. I've seen both doing some quick maneuvers, and they both might have similar turn capabilities, but it would be tough to imagine the Tigercat rolling with the Corsair.

Sorry, I don't have a definitive answer, but would lean toward the Corsair based on roll and proven dogfight ability. However, if I were in combat it would be tough to overlook the twin engines and heavy armament of the F7F. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of F7F combat experience to help us due to the ascendency of jets and the abandonment of pistons right about when the F7F was coming into service.

What do YOU think?

 

[pinsog]

I would have a hard time deciding. If they met head on, the Corsair might be down right away, what with the Tigercat's cannons and MG all on centerline. But that is speculative. If there weren't a quick victory, the climb is about a wash, the speed is quite close, depending on models, the Corsair would have a better roll rate, but the Tigercat certainly has armament all over the F4U.

I'd lean toward the Tigercat if the Tigercat pilot was a good shot and lean toward the Corsair in an extended dogfight. I've seen both doing some quick maneuvers, and they both might have similar turn capabilities, but it would be tough to imagine the Tigercat rolling with the Corsair.

Sorry, I don't have a definitive answer, but would lean toward the Corsair based on roll and proven dogfight ability. However, if I were in combat it would be tough to overlook the twin engines and heavy armament of the F7F. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of F7F combat experience to help us due to the ascendency of jets and the abandonment of pistons right about when the F7F was coming into service.

What do YOU think?

I should have made it more clear "Dogfight starts as they pass each other". I agree 100% that I wouldn't want to be in the Corsair doing a headon pass against a Tigercat. (St. Peter?! Where did this big pearly gate come from???) I also agree with you on speed being equal, weapons go to F7F, and roll to Corsair. I would have thought the Corsair would be able to easily outturn the F7F and I would have thought the F7F would have a much better climb rate.

What do I think? I don't know, but I would LOVE to watch it happen!!!! That F7F is a beautifull airplane.

GregP, next time you see him, why don't you ask your friend that owns/flies the F7F and the others what he thinks would happen in a dogfight between the F7F and F4U? Better yet, ask him which one HE would choose if he had to be in that fight.

 

[GregP]

I'll ask Steve Hinton after the Reno Races are over.

 

[pinsog]

I'll ask Steve Hinton after the Reno Races are over.

I can't wait to here his reply and hopefully, a detailed response on why he would choose what he would choose. When are the races over?

 

[Shortround6]

It may depend on when they spot each other. Corsair may try to go high. 20,000ft is near the dividing line. The higher they go they more advantage the F4U-4 has. The lower they go the more advantage the F7F has.

 

[pinsog]

It may depend on when they spot each other. Corsair may try to go high. 20,000ft is near the dividing line. The higher they go they more advantage the F4U-4 has. The lower they go the more advantage the F7F has.

They see each other from way out, no head on firing, they pass wingtip to wingtip and the fight starts.

Please explain more details from your quote above...