Three reasons why the P-40 was a better fighter in the PTO than the Spitfire

[tomo pauk]

Indeed. Much appreciated.

 

[Aozora]

The RAAF carried out several tests to establish how "Capstan" would perform with a locally manufactured lower cowling, which was based on the standard Spitfire cowling; the experiment didn't work very well:

RAAF Spitfire VCs in their natural environment, showing why the Vokes filters were a necessity:

The consequences of poor airframe maintenance explained:
View attachment Spitfire External Maintenance.pdf

 

[Aozora]

Why the RAAF selected the Mk VIII to succeed the VC:

 

[CobberKane]

How come the Spit VIII didn't require a filter? Was it the aircraft or an improvement in operating conditions by the time it arrived?

 

[fastmongrel]

It did have a filter it had a Vokes Aero vee filter

Though I think this is actually a MkIX which had them fitted when they were moved to dusty forward strips in France.

This link shows the longer filter on Caldwells MKVIII

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/uk/spitf9.shtml

 

[CobberKane]

A bit more elegant than the Vokes

 

[Aozora]

How come the Spit VIII didn't require a filter? Was it the aircraft or an improvement in operating conditions by the time it arrived?

The Spitfire VIII was already equipped with an aero-vee filter as standard; this was much more compact and aerodynamically efficient than the Vokes. As it was the comments referring to the Mk IX being unsuitable for use in tropical or desert conditions only referred to very early production Mk IXs. After the first few production batches most Mk IXs were also fitted with aero-vee filters.

 

[CobberKane]

It's easy to see how the P-40 air intake was much better positioned to avoid excessive dust than the Spits. What about the Merlin engine versions though? The intake disappears from the top of the cowling, I presume because the Merlin has an updraught carburettor. Any known issues of dust problems there?

 

[Shortround6]

Yep, The P-40Fs in North Africa were known to chew up engines much quicker than their Allison powered counterparts. Since the USAAC had not bought/supplied enough spare engines this caused something of a crisis. Alleviated somewhat by the British supplying up to 600 Merlin engines (used?) to be broken down for parts needed to overhaul the American built engines which rather gives lie to oft repeated internet claim that Rolls Royce and Packard engines were built to different standards or couldn't use each others parts.

 

[parsifal]

If the Spits had a poor serviciability rate, compared to the P-40, it sure wasnt apparent in the P-40 operations over new guniea. Serviceability rates throughout 1942 into the first half of 1943 were consistently below 50%. only by the most ruthless cannibalisation were readiness rates able to be maintained even at this low level.

Admittedly, i dont think that poor serviceability was due to anything wrong with the P-40. The main problem in that early part of the Pacific war was an acute shortage of spares.

I dont kno9w what the average serviceability rates were for the Churchill Wing. but logistics in northern australia were at least as difficult as they were around Moresby and milne Bay, and on top of that spares had to come from even further away than for the US types. On the few occasions that I do know the Churchill Wingf was scrambled, it generally was able to put up well in excess of 50% of available airframes

 

[fastmongrel]

Alleviated somewhat by the British supplying up to 600 Merlin engines (used?) to be broken down for parts needed to overhaul the American built engines which rather gives lie to oft repeated internet claim that Rolls Royce and Packard engines were built to different standards or couldn't use each others parts.

Packard, Ford GB and RR engines were stripped for useable parts for Meteor tank engines and they were given the same part numbers irrespective of which factory built the engine.

Of course everyone knows that RR engines were hand carved by Elves in a small woodland clearing. Luckily Detroit fixed all the engines problems and built them by the millions. After the war the evil overlords of RR demanded a license fee for the Packards used by the USAAF, how dare they all those profits belonged to the Packard shareholders.

 

[Aozora]

Packard, Ford GB and RR engines were stripped for useable parts for Meteor tank engines and they were given the same part numbers irrespective of which factory built the engine.

Of course everyone knows that RR engines were hand carved by Elves in a small woodland clearing. Luckily Detroit fixed all the engines problems and built them by the millions. After the war the evil overlords of RR demanded a license fee for the Packards used by the USAAF, how dare they all those profits belonged to the Packard shareholders.

Here is actual photographic evidence of Merlins being built in secret woodland locations; in this case a giant Wood Elf is "pinking" a Merlin 66 after misunderstanding instructions to test the Merlins for pinking:

2 TAF ground crews subsequently uncrated several bright pink Merlins which were immediately installed in Pr Mk IXs thus creating an attractive colour combo which deeply puzzled the Germans:

 

[parsifal]

Its not long now before the bacon makes its entry....

 

[DVH]

Not entirely true! All you had to do was enter combat in the horizontal or diving vertical at airspeeds higher than the Zero's effective maneuvering speeds, something like 250 mph, (probably a little less) and stay within the energy egg at those higher speeds (Biff, chime in any time). the zero's ailerons became concrete at higher speeds.

FYI - the AVG NEVER fought the Zero!

I am aware of the zero not being an adversary of the avg but my chennault quote is an innaccurate approximation of the actual quote 'never turn with a zero'which is repeated all over the place. I would guess thats either its a miss quote, or he was referring to all japanese fighter aircraft in a catch all term 'zero' seeing as they were mostly of similar characteristics.
What is actually very interesting here, is the info delating to the spitfires real performance againsed the japanese fighters, rather better than widely reported.

 

[nuuumannn]

If the Spits had a poor serviciability rate, compared to the P-40, it sure wasnt apparent in the P-40 operations over New Guniea.

This is one of the things that is often quoted as being where the Spit has a disadvantage, but I have read that the serviceability rate of the aircraft of the Churchill Wing was no worse than that of any other aircraft in theatre. The maintenance issues with the Spitfires comes down to supply as much as suitability to the environment. There is much made of this, but the facts were that the P-40's serviceability was not significantly better than other aircraft in theatre, including the Spitfire's. I've mentioned this before. The Pacific was a particularly harsh environment and general serviceability of aircraft was far worse there than at their home bases.

2 TAF ground crews subsequently uncrated several bright pink Merlins which were immediately installed in Pr Mk IXs thus creating an attractive colour combo which deeply puzzled the Germans:

That should be PR.XI, rather than Pr.IX, but whose being picky? That photo of PL965 was taken at East Fortune, Scotland in July 2000. Next to it is the Scandinavian Historic Flight's Mustang painted as Urban Drew's Detroit Miss. Both these aircraft were based on the airfield for a week in hangars there for an airshow. The Spit was in the hands of Tony 'Taff' Smith of the Real Aeroplane Company at Breighton, Yorkshire and Andy Gent flew the Mustang. I got offered a flight in the Mustang - if I fronted up with 200 quid for a touch-and-go! Sadly, I had to decline. I have a similar pic from a similar angle to that one.

 

[Airframes]

It should really be FR.IX if we're talking pink Spits.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am aware of the zero not being an adversary of the avg but my chennault quote is an innaccurate approximation of the actual quote 'never turn with a zero'which is repeated all over the place. I would guess thats either its a miss quote, or he was referring to all japanese fighter aircraft in a catch all term 'zero' seeing as they were mostly of similar characteristics.

It was probably a little bit of both. Some AVG pilots were quoted similar.

 

[nuuumannn]

It should really be FR.IX if we're talking pink Spits.

Terry, PL965 wore a similar pink scheme in service, although not quite as 'pink'. She was/is a PR.XI, being unarmed.

 

[buffnut453]

It was probably a little bit of both. Some AVG pilots were quoted similar.

The Ki-43 was not recognized as a distinct aircraft type until well after the AVG was subsumed into the 14th AF. To American and Commonwealth pilots who faced the Japanese, any fighter with a retractable undercarriage was a Zero (or Navy Nought if you prefer).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Ki-43 was not recognized as a distinct aircraft type until well after the AVG was subsumed into the 14th AF. To American and Commonwealth pilots who faced the Japanese, any fighter with a retractable undercarriage was a Zero (or Navy Nought if you prefer).

Quite true, it wasn't until later in the war when it was verified that only JAAF units were operating in South China during the periods the AVG was operational. I believe that last Zeros to be in the area were gone by October or November, 1941