Top 3 planes for LW...

[tomo pauk]

... that being the planes originating and/or made in the countries they occupied. That list of countries includes Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, France etc. The Soviet Union and Italy partly fit here, so you can toss any of their planes you like (the occupied factories are more readily, if any, available in completely occupied countries). Both the as-is, and with some plausible German upgrade - no DB-603 on Yak-1, please Of course, the earlier design, the more points it scores, ditto for the planes LW/Germany might supply their allies with.
As said in the title, you can choose up to 3 planes/designs.

Almost forgot - please leave the politics away from this topic. Thanks.

clarification: the planes designed and/or made in Germany do not belong in this thread

 

[davebender]

During 1939 the Ju-88 program employed about half the total German airframe construction work force. I suspect the Me-109 program accounted for another 25%. That decides the top two German aircraft programs.

Everything else got crumbs. We just need to determine which German aircraft program received the most crumbs.

 

[tomo pauk]

From the 1st line:

that being the planes originating and/or made in the countries they occupied

Could be read also as 'non-German planes'

 

[Shortround6]

It may depend on the year, what is a good choice in 1940 may be a bad choice in 1943.

For 1940 a good contender might be the LeO 451, especially if you can get some form of the Gnome-Rhone 14R into it, even if it doesn't have quite the power the french claimed .

 

[tomo pauk]

The timing is crucial issue, of course. The idea is to build the original for a year or two, then to introduce a modified plane into production lines.

Good call on the LeO 451.

 

[Rogi]

If I understood the thread, Do-17K for the bomber (The Yugoslavian version, technicly German designed but Yugo. Refined) and well G.50 cause I'm biased towards the Croats using it. Other than that most of the Italian fighters have German inspired something for their aircraft. so those are my two picks

Regards,

Igor

 

[fastmongrel]

Italian 5 series fighters seem to be the best deal though wether they could have been produced in the numbers required is a different matter. Allow Dewoitine and Bloch to develop there fighters maybe with German engines.

 

[tomo pauk]

The mysterious Bloch 157
Even if not capable of claimed 700+ km/h, I guess Germans would've settled for it if it was 50-70 km/h slower. The German allies would be satisfied with VG-33 D.520, I guess. Let alone with some better-performing HS 12 engines.

The 5 series were pretty cool, though I like one Italian plane better - the SM 82 Canguru

 

[Shortround6]

The mysterious Bloch 157
Even if not capable of claimed 700+ km/h, I guess Germans would've settled for it if it was 50-70 km/h slower. The German allies would be satisfied with VG-33 D.520, I guess. Let alone with some better-performing HS 12 engines.

The 5 series were pretty cool, though I like one Italian plane better - the SM 82 Canguru

This is the summing up of a post I made in another forum about the engine used in the Bloch 157;

"you would also have to believe that the 38.7 liter G-R 14R could move more air at 2600rpm and 8.6lbs of boost that an 45.9liter R-2800 turning 2700rpm with 12.0lbs boost and is being throttled back to prevent engine damage at lower altitudes??
The 14R has 84% of the displacement, 93% of the rpm and 87% of the manifold pressure of the 2 stage R-2800 that makes 1650hp at 22,500ft (6,800m).
that has got to be one really, really good French supercharger."

 

[tomo pauk]

I was looking forward to something along that analysis in my thread about the myth of the MB-157 Hence the 390-410 mph (ie. 710 km/h minus those 50-70 km/h) figure for the MB-157 seem a more realistic option? We can continue the discussion there, if you're interested

 

[davebender]

Rather then looking at French and Italian aircraft perhaps we should be looking at French and Italian aircraft engines.

The mysterious MB.157 was supposedly powered by a lightweight twin row radial engine producing 1,580 hp. If this engine really exists and can be produced in quantity why not use it ILO the Jumo 211 V12? The Ju-87D, Ju-88A and (dare I propose it?) He-177B should all perform better when powered by the French designed engine.

During 1940 the Fw-190A prototype switched from the BMW139 radial to the massive BMW801 radial, gaining 635 kg in the process. Why not switch to the lightweight French radial engine instead? Fw-190A1s will have just as much engine power but weight 635 kg less. Since the MB.157 was an Uber aircraft powered by an Uber engine our Fw-190A1 engine should have a service life greater then 25 hours and all those historical cooling problems are avoided. What's not to like?

 

[tomo pauk]

Seem it was not producing such power, even the French say it was producing less:

http://www.enginehistory.org/Museums/SNECMA/132%20%20Gnome%20%20Rhone%2014R.jpg

 

[davebender]

It probably wasn't reliable during 1940 either. I'm just playing to the MB.157 fan club among us. 8)

 

[Siegfried]

This is the summing up of a post I made in another forum about the engine used in the Bloch 157;

"you would also have to believe that the 38.7 liter G-R 14R could move more air at 2600rpm and 8.6lbs of boost that an 45.9liter R-2800 turning 2700rpm with 12.0lbs boost and is being throttled back to prevent engine damage at lower altitudes??
The 14R has 84% of the displacement, 93% of the rpm and 87% of the manifold pressure of the 2 stage R-2800 that makes 1650hp at 22,500ft (6,800m).
that has got to be one really, really good French supercharger."

The Ghome Rhone 14R had 4 valves per cylinder which was very unusual for a radial (the japanese tried as well according to Gunston). A few other features may have helped such as fuel injection or port tuning, but I am not sure about the latter. It also had a two stag supercharger.

 

[Shortround6]

Which 14R was that?

Not the one described in the 1944 edition of "Aircraft engines of the World" which might be in error due to wartime information problems.

but it is also not any of ones described in the 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949 editions of "Aircraft engines of the World" either.

Bristol Mercurys had 4 valves per cylinder as did the Pegasus and so did a raft of 9 cylinder engines derived from license built Bristol Jupiters. 4 valve tow row engines ARE much rarer but I believe the Italians tried with the Alfa 135.

No mention of a 14R with 4 valves per cylinder, no mention of a two stage supercharger. fuel injection is not mentioned until the 1947 edition and then it is an option. The 14R is up to the -32 model by this time.

Are you confusing the Gnome-Rhone 14R radial with the Hispano 12Z V-12 which did have 4 valves per cylinder, fuel injection and a rather strange supercharger which might be described as a "stage and 1/2"? Three axial stages/rotors in front of the centrifugal stage and considering the number of axial stages/rotors it took to actually achieve much compression at the time I doubt that the 3 stages/rotors were equal to a single centrifugal stage.

 

[davebender]

How much power did mass production versions of the 14R engine produce as of June 1940?

 

[Shortround6]

I don't think there were ANY mass produced 14R engines as of June of 1940.

I do think the fact that in 3-4 years of work AFTER the war ended and using 100/130 fuel which did not exist in 1940 the Gnome-Rhone company or it's successor was not able to reach the power "claimed" for the 14R at altitude in 1940 says a lot about that "Claim".

 

[tomo pauk]

That wraps it up nicely.

 

[davebender]

It appears the 1940 MB.157 fighter aircraft was about as real as the 1940 Eastern Bunny.