SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
In all seriousness, this forum is a great place for "fact checking".
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Me? Normal? Come on Thump, be serious. I'm as mad as a box of frogs!The contrast between your normal self and that tone is precisely what made it funny, dude. Just go with it!
Me? Normal? Come on Thump, be serious. I'm as mad as a box of frogs!
I'm 100% gentle.... and pricklier than a porcupine
The BoB lasted until end of October. In the month of October most raids were Bf 109 jabos with Bf 109 escorts at high altitude.Weren't the Ju 87 and the Bf 110 the only Luftwaffe aircraft that were pulled out during the BoB?
The Bf 110's lack of agility in the air was its primary weakness. This flaw was exposed during the Battle of Britain, when some Bf 110-equipped units were withdrawn from the battle after very heavy losses and redeployed as night fighters, a role to which the aircraft was well suited.
And this is confirmed by hundreds of books and articles by all kind of authors and researchers - incl. my father and some of his surviving Luftwaffe Flieger mates.
Two of them later serving in Bf 110 night-fighter units.
Regards
Jagdflieger
Besides dog-fighting against fighters for which it wasn't built -sure
Your opinion - how about facts!Hi Flyboy,
as long as the actual situation over Germany's and Italy's skies in 1943 -45 isn't placed into the right perspective it is in my opinion meaningless to discuss or to bring in performance stats
in regards to downing enemy aircraft and as such concluding which aircraft was great or good.
Nothing? The 210/410 required a crew of 2, had 2 engines and did not have the performance capable of dealing with escorts. It was a waste of money and manpower for bomber interception.What could and did proof e.g. 40 Me 410's (flown by mostly inadequate crews) attacking a Pulk of 200-300 US Bombers escorted by about the same numbers of escort fighters? - off course more or less nothing.
Ok, so you're identifying the issues of the -210/ -410 and showing why these aircraft were not successful!Those few bomber that were downed by the Me 410 could have been downed just as well by any other Luftwaffe aircraft if sufficient numbers would have been around.
If at all those Me 210/410 should have been placed into night-fighter units - but the German high command wanted to see day-light action - no matter the price to pay.
Here's a saying - "would have, should have, could have."But 400 Fw 190D-9 with well trained and experienced pilots (which were not around) taking care of the escort fighters and a 100 Me 410 manned by adequate crews in 1944 (which were not around) would have been devestating for those bombers.
It's based on aircraft performance in may cases - I don't make these threads - if you don't like them, don't participate!But we all know that wasn't the case/ situation in 1943-45 so what's the point of these "best of..." threads then? - unless discussions solely amongst Allied aircraft's are the reason.
You're the one who brought up the Mosquito in your last post!!!!As e.g. for the Mosquito more then 6000 were build and placed into action. As for the Me 410 about 1100 were build of which less then 500 were put into action - so again what's
the point of placing a comparison based on executed missions and kills?
A quote from the link you provided:Besides dog-fighting against fighters for which it wasn't built -sure
would you out-rule that an
A-20 couldn't perform a recon mission? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a bombing attack? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a strafing raid on an airfield? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a ship/naval attack? maybe even better?
A-20 couldn't perform a supply drop, transport? even far better?
A-20 couldn't perform an medi/evac? even far better?
A-20 couldn't sneak up and shot down e.g. any of the following aircraft's?
A5M, D3A (Val),Ki-32 (Mary) etc.
But tell me please, since I wouldn't know, did the P-38 have any impact or was it a necessity once the Hellcat/Corsair/P-51 and P-47 arrived in the PTO? or the latter 2
plus Spitfires, Tempest, Typhoon and Mossies around in the ETO?
The A-20's and it's variants were still a necessity in both theaters.
The Hellcat had a kill ratio of 19 to 1, what was the P-38 kill ratio? in the PTO? and even the Wildcat was used to result in 15 or more USN air-aces.
No doubt the P-38 was of great assistance and value in the PTO between 1941 - 1943, but then.....as I mentioned before, if one got enough $$ and industrial capacity
one can field as many aircraft's as one likes, needed or not.
As for the ETO and more information on the P-38 please see: I think it's very informative
Regards
Jagdflieger
The Hellcat and Corsair were operated by the Navy, the P-38 by the AAF, both had different roles and in many cases operated in very different environments. The P-38 provided the AAF with a long range fighter capable of operating in several roles - something you eventually mentioned in your previous comment!But tell me please, since I wouldn't know, did the P-38 have any impact or was it a necessity once the Hellcat/Corsair/P-51 and P-47 arrived in the PTO?
Then why say this??????A head on head or dogfight, voluntarily between a Me 410 against a P-38 would have been suicide since the Me 410 was never intended to engage fighter aircraft which essentially
a P-38 is, independent of being multi-mission capable.
Right - but I did not design the headline of this "Listing"
The more appropriate wording might be "The best 10 twin engine, Multi-role aircraft" - then bye. bye P-38
The Bf 109 shot down more allied fighters then any other Luftwaffe plane - most of the Luftwaffe Aces made their kills in Bf 109 - so does that mean that the Bf 109 wasA quote from the link you provided:
"It shot down more Japanese airplanes than any other fighter during World War II—seven of the top scoring USAAF aces in the Pacific flew the P-38. It was as versatile as the de Havilland Mosquito, but it was the only truly successful twin-engine fighter of World War II."
I admit I like the P-38, one of my favorite aircraft and I actually worked where they were produced. With that said many of the "technical issues" found on the P-38 existed in many other fighters of the period. The issues with the P-38 were highly publicized because it was the first to encounter these issues.The interesting part for me on that page is the history and technical issues related to the P-38 - never mind the authors maybe personal liking of the P-38.
Regards
Jagdflieger
Oh you got me there - I had never realized that - thanksBut the Bf109, Fw190, F6F, F4U and so on, were not twin-engined fighters...
No surprise thereI admit I like the P-38, one of my favorite aircraft and I actually worked where they were produced. With that said many of the "technical issues" found on the P-38 existed in many other fighters of the period. The issues with the P-38 were highly publicized because it was the first to encounter these issues.
Because then to me it would be a Mossie - followed by the Me 410 and as I reasoned and pointed out the Meteor, but then that is just my personal liking or conviction.Then why say this??????
Then you'll admit the P-38 WAS a multi-role aircraft?Because then to me it would be a Mossie - followed by the Me 410 and as I reasoned and pointed out the Meteor, but then that is just my personal liking or conviction.
And I am not forcing anyone to agree - but I was and am willing to state it. = that all there is to it.
Regards
Jagdflieger
Off course - I never stated otherwiseThen you'll admit the P-38 WAS a multi-role aircraft?
It was a long range fighter
It was an interceptor
It was a reconnaissance aircraft
It was a fighter bomber
It was used as a pathfinder
It was briefly used as a night fighter
It was used as an advanced trainer