Top Ten Twin-Engine Fighters of World War II

[Shortround6]

Sud-Est SE 100 only one built but a 2nd one on the way and 300 on ordered.
Four 20mm cannon (descriptions vary) firing out the front and a single 20mm in powered (?) mount out the back.

estimated speed was 360mph.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Sud-Est SE 100 only one built but a 2nd one on the way and 300 on ordered.
Four 20mm cannon (descriptions vary) firing out the front and a single 20mm in powered (?) mount out the back.

estimated speed was 360mph.

Thanks a lot - kind of sounds interesting. Got to take a closer look onto that creature.

It does look awesome from the frontperspective, doesn't it?

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[GrauGeist]

Twin engined "fighters" was a concept born of the 1930's and virtually every air force in the world had one or more examples.

The term applied to a particular type was mostly given by that nation's government.
In the U.S., there was not only the P-38, but Grumman's XF5F/XP-50. Both were classified as "figher", but the Lockheed's original mission profile was more of a bomber interceptor (destroyer), while Grumman's proposal was a true single seat fighter.
In comparison, Messerschmitt's Bf110 was a "heavy multi-purpose figher" (also a destroyer) while the original concept of the Fw187 was intended to be a pure single-seat fighter (never mind the later iterations that infected it's original design).
The Japanese had the KI-45, which was referred to as a "long range escort fighter".
The Dutch had their Fokker G.1, which was classified as a "heavy fighter".
The Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM.88 was classified as a "multi-role heavy fighter".
The Potez 630 of France was originally intended to be a "heavy fighter".

Many more examples, but we start to see the mindset of global air forces and what they required for that point in time.

 

[John Vasco]

Oh my God - now I even feel compelled to defend that useless fellow

The Germans or Luftwaffe never referred to the Bf 110 as a Jagdflugzeug/fighter. Fat boys designation in accordance with tough Nazi language was "Kampfzerstörer" (battle destroyer)
and "Zerstörerwaffe" (destroyer weapon) then in 1938 more humanized by Udet into Zerstörer (destroyer) and from 1941 onwards as "Zerstörer Jabo" (destroyer fighterbomber)
Bf 110 comprising units were not organized or designated as "Jagdgeschwader"(fighter squadrons) but as special as they were into "Schwerer Jaeger Verband" (heavy fighter unit) and last not least from 1939 onward as "Zerstörer Geschwader" ZG (destroyer wing)

I assume its only the Anglo-American literature/language that refers or translates it to fighter aircraft.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Every Bf 110 crew member that I interviewed referred to their aircraft as a fighter. Those who flew with Erprobungsgruppe 210 referred to their aircraft as a 'Jagdbomber'.

 

[tomo pauk]

The more appropriate wording might be "The best 10 twin engine, Multi-role aircraft" - then bye. bye P-38

Why?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The more appropriate wording might be "The best 10 twin engine, Multi-role aircraft" - then bye. bye P-38

The P-38 WAS truly a multi-role aircraft and accomplished a number of roles it was never designed for, so what's the basis of your comment???

 

[pbehn]

The comparison/evaluation between double and single engine automatically arises IMHO due to the term "Fighter" As such I fully agree with you that in regards to fighter
the only 2 engine plane worth mentioning is the P-38, even though AFAIK it is not widely considered to have been a good fighter aircraft. But as always it usually depends
rather on the pilots skills then just the aircraft.

The capabilities of single engined aircraft increased throughout the war, not only in range but also aids to the pilot (like a radio that reaches more than 50 miles) eventually there were radar systems that could be fitted on single engined planes, at the outbreak of war even fitting radar in an aircraft was considered a miracle.. That doesnt mean you can discount the achievements of twin engined aircraft before the P-38 arrived in April 1942. There were major battles over water that single engined fighters of the time just couldnt reach. The P-38 for all its merits as a fighter was first used for photo recon, an unglamorous role but essential and only the best planes could do it.

 

[drgondog]

Seems like another goat rope.

Leaving the Me 262 or Meteor off the list of 'Best' (define 'best') on the basis of 'too late to contribute when introduced a year before war over and scaring the living hell out of opposition aircrews, seems silly to me.

I suspect that if you had the keys to the flight line and asked a group of fighter pilots which 'twin' they wanted to fight with, there would only be two lines.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hm.... or the aircraft that replaced it? my all time favorite jet No. 2 out of 10 British military jet aircraft's, the Meteor F.3s with the Derwent I engines

Regards
Jagdflieger

In WWII? The Meteor was not very versatile at all; it was still a-birthing and had much to grow. The Mossie, on the other hand, managed night-fighting, bombing, target-marking, and anti-shipping, amongst other chores.

 

[Jagdflieger]

The P-38 WAS truly a multi-role aircraft and accomplished a number of roles it was never designed for, so what's the basis of your comment???

Hi there Flyboy,

ups...staff member, who might even favor the P-38, now I need to be careful

Certainly every listing depends on the "important" criteria attributed or deemed to be the important ones by the respective respondent. That is why usually I don't favor these "Best off..." threads too much. Initially I only went into this thread due to me being amazed about the creator of this listing having placed a Bf 110 on rank 5, and ignoring other aircraft's
such as e.g. a Me 410, Meteor, etc.
If one reflects his personal opinion towards an aircraft of WW2 based on produced numbers - and therefore considerable contributions during the war, then I guess German aircraft's
wouldn't make it in any of these listings. My personal criteria if German aircraft's are included in such listings, then reflects onto it's contribution as such but under the recognition of
mostly being too late, not sufficient numbers and last not least being pitted against vastly superior allied forces - thus even making it's actual success look mediocre to null.

So lets compare a Me 410 to a P-38.
The Me 410/210 is being ridiculed and put down due to its initial design flops. Me 410 time-frame 1941 - end of 1943 (3) years to work out the bugs and to make it a good aircraft.
P-38 time-frame 1938 - 1943/44 (P-38J) 5-6 years to make it a good aircraft. (keeping in mind that previous P-38 models could not dive after e.g. a Me-109 or Fw 190) Half of all P-38s had no dive flaps and factory installed dive flaps were not introduced in production until the P-38J-25 in mid-1944. Even from 1938 -1941 (3 years) the P-38 was bugged by all kind of issues and problems.
Taking the same argumentative approach of other posters towards the Me 210/410 - SaparotRob quote:
My lack of aviation knowledge is legendary but even I know the Me 210 should be placed in the trash.
Hey !! this is totally not against SaparotRob - but he reflects with his statement the overall judgment given by probably a vast majority.

Yes the P-38 performed well against the Japanese were I might forward that besides 'occasionally" a Zero coming up - those Japanese pilots were flying in majority 2nd class fighters and 2 engine constructions that would be easy prey for a P-40 or any other similar aircraft. An A-20G could have done the same job, and just as a lucky and skilled Luftwaffe pilot in a Bf 110 downing a Spitfire, an A-20G could have (maybe even did?) down a Zero.

In aspects of versatility of tasks I don't see a P-38 outperforming a Me 410 - what astonishes me is however the weapon load capability that is attributed to the P-38 (3500-4000lbs) that is almost the bomb-load of a B-17. (I wonder why the USAAF even went into B-17, B-25, Boston, Havoc, and e.g. B-26 programs - regarding the European theater). well I guess
if one can afford and has the production capacity for all these aircraft's - why not.

And a P-38 on a mission to Italy in 1943 carrying 3000-4000lb - what chance would that pilot have had against even a Re. 2001 or a Bf 109? but as history teaches us it wasn't
a one on one, but e.g. Italy 1943 a hundred P-38 (some with, others without a bomb-load) being attacked by a handful of Axis aircraft.

Therefore in regards to this listing; a Me 210/410 is missing and depending on the posters expectations or interpretations it would be IMHO a closing race between the
Mosquito and a Me 410. - but that is just my personal opinion based on the above explanations. And if someone attributes his attention or "important factors" towards
the "future' of a WW2 aircraft I would also add a Meteor (in view all its implemented combat restrictions) into the 3 remaining candidates for being the no.1

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[SaparotRob]

RE: ridicule
Have you not read the Groundhog thread?
That's when we ridicule. Heck, the 410 isn't even at Amiot 143 level ridicule.

Ooops. I meant 210.

 

[SaparotRob]

I was going for a turn of phrase. Jagdfleiger asked where would the ME 210 "place" in a comparison. I replied that it should be "placed" in the trash".
As GrauGeist is a big fan of my sense of humor, he might be able to explain about me.

 

[Jagdflieger]

RE: ridicule
Have you not read the Groundhog thread?
That's when we ridicule. Heck, the 410 isn't even at Amiot 143 level ridicule.

Hi SaparotRob,

no, not aware of such a thread - thanks, I will certainly have a look
Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi there Flyboy,

ups...staff member, who might even favor the P-38, now I need to be careful

No need to be provided you follow forum rules...

Certainly every listing depends on the "important" criteria attributed or deemed to be the important ones by the respective respondent. That is why usually I don't favor these "Best off..." threads too much. Initially I only went into this thread due to me being amazed about the creator of this listing having placed a Bf 110 on rank 5, and ignoring other aircraft's
such as e.g. a Me 410, Meteor, etc.
If one reflects his personal opinion towards an aircraft of WW2 based on produced numbers - and therefore considerable contributions during the war, then I guess German aircraft's
wouldn't make it in any of these listings. My personal criteria if German aircraft's are included in such listings, then reflects onto it's contribution as such but under the recognition of
mostly being too late, not sufficient numbers and last not least being pitted against vastly superior allied forces - thus even making it's actual success look mediocre to null.

OK....

So lets compare a Me 410 to a P-38.
The Me 410/210 is being ridiculed and put down due to its initial design flops. Me 410 time-frame 1941 - end of 1943 (3) years to work out the bugs and to make it a good aircraft.
P-38 time-frame 1938 - 1943/44 (P-38J) 5-6 years to make it a good aircraft. (keeping in mind that previous P-38 models could not dive after e.g. a Me-109 or Fw 190) Half of all P-38s had no dive flaps and factory installed dive flaps were not introduced in production until the P-38J-25 in mid-1944. Even from 1938 -1941 (3 years) the P-38 was bugged by all kind of issues and problems.

All true but at the same time, no one in 1938 was expecting the P-38 to escort bombers over Europe, fight at high altitude or perform fighter bomber raids deep into France and Germany. In 1938 it was thought that no more than 60 or 70 P-38s would ever be built and despite all it's issues (no more than many other combat aircraft of the day), it was the ONLY US fighter that was in service before Dec 7 and remained in production until wars' end. I'd suggest reading Joe Christy & Jeff Ethell's book "P-38 Lightning at War" and you'll learn why the gestation period of this aircraft took so long....

Oh - did I mention it was one of the first combat aircraft to fly over 400 mph? And the prototype established a speed record on it's first cross country flight!

BTW - the -210 and -410 had many "bugs" through out their service life, many never fixed and their mediocre combat record it evident of this.

Taking the same argumentative approach of other posters towards the Me 210/410 - SaparotRob quote:
My lack of aviation knowledge is legendary but even I know the Me 210 should be placed in the trash.
Hey !! this is totally not against SaparotRob - but he reflects with his statement the overall judgment given by probably a vast majority.

Ok...

Yes the P-38 performed well against the Japanese were I might forward that besides 'occasionally" a Zero coming up - those Japanese pilots were flying in majority 2nd class fighters and 2 engine constructions that would be easy prey for a P-40 or any other similar aircraft. An A-20G could have done the same job, and just as a lucky and skilled Luftwaffe pilot in a Bf 110 downing a Spitfire, an A-20G could have (maybe even did?) down a Zero.

Hmmm - What's your definition of "2nd class fighters and 2 engine constructions?" And the P-38 in the PTO not only fought against IJN units but against JAAF units as well and encountered a variety of Japanese fighter aircraft. You do realize that the Zero was not the only fighter the Japanese produced during the war?!? You are really generalizing without substance. Have you ever researched the P-38 units in the PTO, their pilots and fully understand why they did so well?? Start with training and continue with tactics. P-40s alone were not going to bring the required aerial superiority to totally remove the JAAF and/ or IJN from the Soloman Islands or New Guinea, they did not have the range or performance. The fact that an A-20 "may' have downed a Zero is irrelevant and trying to suggest than an A-20 could perform a combat role in the PTO like the P-38 is very far fetched!!!

In aspects of versatility of tasks I don't see a P-38 outperforming a Me 410

Have you compared their performance specs and combat record??? The -410 couldn't make 400 mph, had a dismal range, and had a service ceiling of about 33K - the 410 was removed from interceptor duties late in the war because it couldn't perform and was getting slaughtered by escorts, especially the P-51!!!

- what astonishes me is however the weapon load capability that is attributed to the P-38 (3500-4000lbs) that is almost the bomb load of a B-17.

For short range missions...

(I wonder why the USAAF even went into B-17, B-25, Boston, Havoc, and e.g. B-26 programs - regarding the European theater). well I guess
if one can afford and has the production capacity for all these aircraft's - why not.

Because each one of those aircraft provided "different performances to fulfill a different mission required by a different command in a different theater of operation." There was also a matter of having a plan B should one production line not be able to fulfill a delivery commitment. Not far fetched - the "Official Guide to the AAF (1944)" explains this in quite detail.

And a P-38 on a mission to Italy in 1943 carrying 3000-4000lb - what chance would that pilot have had against even a Re. 2001 or a Bf 109?

None if they were carrying bombs! That's why you had top cover fighters protecting fighter bombers during fighter sweeps or they jettison their bombs to defend themselves, that simple!

but as history teaches us it wasn't
a one on one, but e.g. Italy 1943 a hundred P-38 (some with, others without a bomb-load) being attacked by a handful of Axis aircraft.

I have no idea what you're trying to say with that statement...

Therefore in regards to this listing; a Me 210/410 is missing and depending on the posters expectations or interpretations it would be IMHO a closing race between the
Mosquito and a Me 410. - but that is just my personal opinion based on the above explanations.

That's even more far fetched - the Mosquito was twice the aircraft either the -210 or -410 could ever be. Again, I invite you to do some honest research into these aircraft, their performance and combat record.

So far you said a lot but at the same time said very little.

 

[SaparotRob]

Yeah. That's my function!

 

[Shortround6]

Seems to bit harsh on the P-38 and some rose tinted glasses on the Me 210.

'Even from 1938 -1941 (3 years) the P-38 was bugged by all kind of issues and problems.'
The XP-38 first flew 27 Jan 1939.
It crashed 11 Feb 1939

first YP-38 flew 17 Sept 1940., so for about 1 1/2 of the three years there were no P-38s flying.
First Me 210 flew 2 Sept 1939.

One does wonder about the Me 210 being a "fighter"
The enclosed bomb bay was pretty rare for a "fighter" and the remote control rear guns sucked up a lot of space and weight for a fighter.
It is more like a fast bomber that could mount extra guns into the bomb bay?

 

[Marcel]

Funny, an aviation discussion in 'Basic'.

Hi SaparotRob,

no, not aware of such a thread - thanks, I will certainly have a look
Regards
Jagdflieger

Better don't. Not the forum's finest hour.

 

[Jagdflieger]

I have no idea what you're trying to say with that statement...

That's even more far fetched - the Mosquito was twice the aircraft either the -210 or -410 could ever be. Again, I invite you to do some honest research into these aircraft, their performance and combat record. So far you said a lot but at the same time said very little.

Hi Flyboy,

as long as the actual situation over Germany's and Italy's skies in 1943 -45 isn't placed into the right perspective it is in my opinion meaningless to discuss or to bring in performance stats
in regards to downing enemy aircraft and as such concluding which aircraft was great or good.
What could and did proof e.g. 40 Me 410's (flown by mostly inadequate crews) attacking a Pulk of 200-300 US Bombers escorted by about the same numbers of escort fighters? - off course more or less nothing. Those few bomber that were downed by the Me 410 could have been downed just as well by any other Luftwaffe aircraft if sufficient numbers would have been around.
If at all those Me 210/410 should have been placed into night-fighter units - but the German high command wanted to see day-light action - no matter the price to pay.

But 400 Fw 190D-9 with well trained and experienced pilots (which were not around) taking care of the escort fighters and a 100 Me 410 manned by adequate crews in 1944 (which were not around) would have been devestating for those bombers.
But we all know that wasn't the case/ situation in 1943-45 so what's the point of these "best of..." threads then? - unless discussions solely amongst Allied aircraft's are the reason.

As e.g. for the Mosquito more then 6000 were build and placed into action. As for the Me 410 about 1100 were build of which less then 500 were put into action - so again what's
the point of placing a comparison based on executed missions and kills?

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[Jagdflieger]

One does wonder about the Me 210 being a "fighter"
The enclosed bomb bay was pretty rare for a "fighter" and the remote control rear guns sucked up a lot of space and weight for a fighter.
It is more like a fast bomber that could mount extra guns into the bomb bay?

That's because fat boy and the crazy Austrian never gave up on this vision of a Kampfzerstoerer/Schnellbomber(Battle destroyer-Fast Bomber) the initial specs leading to the
Bf 110 had also included an enclosed weapons-bay for bombs - the actual arrising opportunity for the Me 262 shared the same fate.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[Jagdflieger]

Funny, an aviation discussion in 'Basic'.

Better don't. Not the forum's finest hour.

Hi Marcel

showing my favorite British jet - great

Regards
Jagdflieger