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However, assuming that they realised what was happening, I have been considering what could they have done to reduce loses from AA. Would it have been possible for a V1 to fly a zigzag course by incorporating a timer and shifting the course from 30 degrees east of the true course to 30 degrees west of true every perhaps 20 seconds (.
But think about the economic difference between a turbojet (even a small one) versus a pulsejet both in material and timesurely a turbo jet that only has to run at one setting for an hour is cheaper than those fitted to a 262?
But think about the economic difference between a turbojet (even a small one) versus a pulsejet both in material and time
Another consideration: the materials used to make "mini" turbojets would be diverting much needed labor and materials away from the jet aircraft, which were sorely needed.
I'm not sure any of the above would realistically reduce the cost to the sort of levels that would make a turbojet competitive with a pulse jet. Some of the points seem to be wishful thinking.
Cheers
Steve
Not to mention the configuration Ohain used with centrifugal compressor and (especially) radial turbine was good for a number of reasons that also made it less practical to scale up. The radial turbine was large and heavy and used a lot of material, but also coped with mechanical and thermal stressed far better than an axial turbine and was somewhat easier to match with a compressor (in terms of power and flow rate). Of any turbine design, including hollow blades, that early one that worked so well as a short-term proof of concept would have been the one best suited to using mild steel.Noteworthy is that this doesn't include the cost of raw materials it such as sheet stock. Material is not expensive if steel but can be used but unless it includes nickel and chromium due to the high cost of mining and refining it. If the turbine inlet temperatures are kept below 650C the turbine can be made a 2 hours throwaway item of pure steal, this is what was planed for some of the German jet engines. Your turbojet is inefficient and big but its still better than a pulse jet.
unless the fuel savings made up for the cost (or overall logistical cost -not just monetary) there's still major advantages for the pulse jet. However if a disposable turbojet would have allowed /earlier/ introduction of such a missile AND made it more reliable and easier to develop further (particularly anything associated with vibration), there would be those advantages as well. (even for the same size missile and same payload, if accuracy was improved thanks to a combination of factors hinging on use of a turbojet, it might totally displace advantages of the pulse jet, or merit producing both side by side and varying production volumes depending on available resources -different resource bottlenecks could favor one as being less costly than the other, including the turbojet using less than half the fuel to get to the same target)So yes a guided turbojet powered V1 was probably only 50% more expensive as a shorter ranged unguided one and even if it were twice the price it would be 'affordable'. If you say its twice as expensive I say its still cost effective.
Mode of failure on short-life engines becomes more significant for manned aircraft, something that severely impacted the XP-80A testing though not so much with other early tests. (The P-80 is the only one of the early jets I'm aware of having the engine actually explode -impeller and/or turbine shattering and shearing off the rear fuselage)Interestingly the Germans experimented with the idea of semi disposable aircraft that were pulse jet powered. The deposable 109-005 gave these projects, such as the Me 328 a new life.
This was true late-war but not nearly as much early on. Initially, chromium was more the bottleneck for stainless steel alloys (used in all sorts of applications -including piston engines) but losing access to Finnish Nickel late-war was a major blow to that.In both engines there was very little nickel, chromium or manganese. At most 6kg of each with nickel virtually eliminated to 200 grams in some versions. Nickel was in very short supply.
That's why the He280 was smaller and more nimble than the Me262...as well as not being able to accept the 003 or 004 as a substitute.Ohain's designs also had better thrust to weight ratios than the 004 and to lesser extent 003, and that's as-is in 1939. (compared to production ready 003A and 004B -let alone the poorer thrust to wright of the heavy 004A) They actually fared better than Whittle's designs prior to the W.2. (Welland)
Labor and resources needed for turbojet manufacture was simpler and less demanding than a good deal of other industries, including piston engine production and, beyond that I'm mainly postulating turbojets in use BEFORE they're ready to be used for anything else. (though said throw-away jets might find their way into specialized manned aircraft as well)Compare that to the build time of an Argus (014 or 044) AND factor in the amount of materials used to build it.
Another consideration: the materials used to make "mini" turbojets would be diverting much needed labor and materials away from the jet aircraft, which were sorely needed.
There's actually a video of a really neat mostly plywood home-made turbojet engine on youtube, but I can't seem to find it right now. I think it was just the compressor and diffuser that were wood, but I forget the details. (it was self sustaining and ran on propane)As a teenager a friend of mine made a wooden piston for his moped, it ran very badly for five minutes but it ran, i would say if a turbine only has to run for maybe 30 to 60 minutes very simple alloys with larger tolerances could be used.
I think all those points are valid, though scaling up/down when dealing with aerodynamics and mechanical engineering is far from linear, and the bigger change in scale the greater potential variables to address. But at least in the case of Ohain's designs, the compressor and turbine arrangement should have been very close to ideal for scaling down. (and that is if the existing HeS 3 wasn't directly adapted as-is -it's weight and thrust are such that they'd fit reasonable well on a missile with the payload and range of the V1, at about half the weight and 50-60% the thrust)1 We don't need a starter motor, blow in some compressed air
2 being a bit smaller means you are simply machining and cutting less.
3 smaller parts mean less parts as two items can often be fabricated as one.
4 we now have a rotating shaft to add an alternator and a supply of 3 bar compressed bleed air that might run the autopilot and get rid of the compressed air bottle. Not saying you'd do that but it might be an latter option and it would allow more fuel.
5 less vibration equals lighter mountings.
6 single use spark plugs, external electrical ignition source, or some other mechanism.
7 no throttle, control by an external Allen key that sequences start up.
8 no fuel delivery pump, blow in air from compressor or compressed air bottle. There are pressure doubling devices since fuel pressure probably needs to be greater than compressor pressure.
9 cheaper alloys.
11 less conservative engineering
The 003 might have been reasonably suited, but was too delayed to be useful for testing. Pulse jets were never successfully tested but at least considered. (thrust to weight was right, and fuel consumption and short valve life might have been OK as a point interceptor, but I doubt the vibration issues and radiant heat would mesh well with airframe longevity)That's why the He280 was smaller and more nimble than the Me262...as well as not being able to accept the 003 or 004 as a substitute.
I agree for the most part, and I think I explained the more intricate exceptions behind my own supposition above. (in as far as potential early-war turbojet use -and even then, it might have been a waste to use short life turbojets on missiles rather than point interceptors or maybe even recon aircraft ... maybe short range attack or glide bombers? -like the Hs 132 concept but say 3 years sooner)Anyway, compare the amount of time and materials to construct a turbojet versus the amount of time and materials needed to construct a pulsejet.
In the situation that Germany was in at the time, it made sense to focus on the Argus as a means of propulsion for the V1. The As044 was a better engine, but it was slow to come to production (being developed late war) and too late in the war to be of any good.
Hmm, regardless of engine used, the system might have been effective as a decoy (with bomb delivery as a secondary goal) in drawing out British forces and exacerbating their already strained conditions early-war, particularly while the LW was concentrating on Fighter Command and Chain Home. They had engines (of some sort -not the production As 014) flying in 1938 and the principal is simple enough (more so if you compromise on easier to vaporize/burn fuel used -possibly cheaper fuel too). Possibly even larger missile bodies/wings with speed less critical and mimicking manned aircraft somewhat more useful. (plus more compromises in design to address vibration issues without as tight a need for weight or drag reduction, or being able to reach london -the coastal RAF targets, or the surrounding area would be the goal)3. As pointed out to me on a previous thread, the big impact of the V-1 was the diversion of forces to counteract the V-1. I think that probably the greatest impact to that would have been more launches not longer ranges, faster flying, or more accurate (still poor) weapon delivery.
5. I think the V-1 was ideal for the job. Cheap and simple and easy to build thousands and saturate enemy defenses. If they had those during the Blitz it would have cause all kinds of problems for the Brits.
In the case of the 004: compromising with a smaller turbine, fewer compressor stages, lower compression, lower turbine temperature, short operation life, among other things could have simplified mass production as well as production using non-strategic materials.4. I'm sure that simply reducing the size of the jet engine does not make the development or manufacture any easier, it would reduce materials, and I certainly don't believe it is nearly as cheap as a stove pipe with flapper valves and stove burners (I'm being facetious, I really mean blow torch) to build. And I suspect it would require more skilled labor.
1. V-1 bombing (and to a larger extent, V-2 bombing) was not nor would ever be an effective interdiction weapon. Accuracy was never available in WW2 to provide a reasonable one bomb one hit performance. Probably, this would not become available until GPS entered the scene. Without this, the Germans were throwing pin pricks at the Brits (unless it was you who was at ground zero). .
2. Improving speed, range, and survivability would not have much of an impact on British logistics. Even if all the 9000+ V-1 launched hit London, it would have had little impact on the war. In just one 24 hour period, Bomber Command dropped 10,000 tons of bombs on the Germans, and they still fought on effectively. How many tons of bombs were being dropped on Germany on a daily bases? I suspect a lot more than 9000 tons, the total amount of all the V-1s. .
Indeed, a more costly weapon could still be more cost effective if the actual damage done (and utility of hitting precision targets) outweighed the added costs. (including time to operational service)Because the V1 was a cheap weapon doesn't mean It couldn't be upgraded to an more expensive but much more accurate guided version and that this would mean the weapon was no longer worthwhile.
More range and accuracy widens the range of targets outside of the Greater London area and makes it possible to target large factories.
Those figures would be even more comparable if Heinkel had put the engineering AND manufacturing resources of the He 177 into an earlier jet bomber project. Or, aside from engineering resources in the intellectual end, there's the cost of prototypes and preproduction aircraft too. Having more than just the He 280 on the table using Heinkel jet engines would have given the RLM much more reason to support them too, especially with an early-war offensive weapon design. (plus, even with Heinkel/Ohain seeing the HeS 6 as too bulky and heavy to be really attractive to develop further -an error in itself, but for the sake of argument sticking with that point of view- those drawbacks would be less significant on a larger aircraft where the engine weight and drag took up a smaller percentage of the overall aircraft)The Arado works in Late 1943 employed 16,000 people in production of the Heinkel He 177 while a large number were likely at Heinkels own facility. If 16000 people worked a 48 hour week they produced 768,000 hours. This could produce in 1 week:
1 2,194 V1's at 350 hours each. (I fact about a production rate of 10,000 month is what seems to have been available)
2 192 V2 missiles at 4000 hours each (the figure for the 10,000th produced)
3 38.4 He 177 at 20,000 hours each. In fact the 20,000 hours is the Lancaster number (probably without engines) and a He 177 would be nowhere near that. I'd say 25 a week max. I believe the Germans were hoping for 200/month at one point with all plants.
The Germans and Americans were using guided weapons in ww2. The guided projectile that would home on a source of radio waves was a possibility.