Udet- Germany really did not intend to Invade UK ever.

[Hunter368]

Udet I will only respond to what you wrote to me.

1) First, not sure if everyone here agrees with you on alot of you ideas or opinions that is up to them to decide (not sure if you really care anyways), but I do see more then most some truths in your opinions but it is sometimes the way you talk to people that gets them upset. I know this is not the first time you have heard that, but it is worth repeating. I think you are very knowledgeable on Germany in WW2 but perhaps alittle slanted towards Germany and against the Allies. Now at times I get tried of reading about alot of the Allied opinions and thoughts of WW2 but it is my right to put that book down and not read it. That is why I buy books of WW2 from the Axis powers point of view about 5-1 ratio b/c I have read sooooo much about the Allies it gets boring. So I do respect your opinions here but if you tried passing them along alittle more respectfully I and perhaps others would be more agreeable to them. I would like to point out or ask is English your first language? Its just that it is alittle hard to understand what you are saying at times, it is like English is maybe your second language is all, I mean no offense here just asking.

2) Your first and second point in the other thread the peace offering by Hitler. Lets start there. You say Hitler made two peace offers to UK, true. With Russia ever, other than the broken treaty no. But to me that means nothing. All it means is that he truly did not want to fight a very dangerous enemy in UK and wanted to end it with peace not a war. Hitler in Mein Kampf (which I read) states Germany needs living space, that space is to the East in Russia. He always wanted to destroy Russia from way back. As far as France goes Hitler was not interested in Alger or Morocco b/c he had no interest in them. It was not worth he time or effort to invade them he had bigger fish to fry then them. Hitler did respect UK but that means nothing. Hitler was not a fool at times he was a genius and at other times he was a fool.
3) Your third point you say this: Think of this, and I believe it is here where you miss the point:
I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode in-spite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

I say what are you saying here? Not sure if you are quoting someone here or aiming this at me or what.

Then you say how Hitler if he wanted to he could of threw everything at UK that he could, air-force, navy (surface fleet), Uboats. Lets me answer all point by point.
Airforce - He did try this it failed, BoB.
Uboats- He did try this it failed, Battle of the Atlantic
Surface Navy- He did send some out on raids in the Atlantic. But for the most part Hitler had no confidence in his navy (surface fleet) and very much concentrated on land battles alone. He in the end just had them sit in their ports and tried his luck with the only part of the navy he trusted or liked, Uboats.

Finally you say this: "Hitler´s alleged plan to invade England was more the product of a sudden undesired circumstance and not one of premeditation and profound desire."

I agree with you some there. Did he always dream or wish to invade UK like he did with Russia, no. But when war was declared on him by France and UK he knew that he might have to. So he did the smart thing, defeated France first, then second, tried to bluff and intimidate UK into surrendering, while at the same time preparing to invade them if it was necessary. He quickly realized part way BoB that was imposable and gave it up.


As a side note if you have any good books from the Axis point of view please do give me a list, always looking for more good reading. Thanks

 

[Hunter368]

I have posted this here so the thread" D-Day - 6th June, 1944." can get back on track. This is for Udet but anyone can post here also if you like, it is based on the disscuion started back in thread "D-Day - 6th June, 1944.
" between me (few others also) and Udet.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Surface Navy- He did send some out on raids in the Atlantic. But for the most part Hitler had no confidence in his navy (surface fleet) and very much concentrated on land battles alone. He in the end just had them sit in their ports and tried his luck with the only part of the navy he trusted or liked, Uboats.

Actually it was not that he did not trust his surface fleet. Hitler himself said he was fascinated with Battleships and Carriers and Surface fleets, but he was terrified of war on the high seas.

 

[Hunter368]

Surface Navy- He did send some out on raids in the Atlantic. But for the most part Hitler had no confidence in his navy (surface fleet) and very much concentrated on land battles alone. He in the end just had them sit in their ports and tried his luck with the only part of the navy he trusted or liked, Uboats.

Actually it was not that he did not trust his surface fleet. Hitler himself said he was fascinated with Battleships and Carriers and Surface fleets, but he was terrified of war on the high seas.

Interesting view point, just from my point of view I have seen it written and TV that Hitler never had confidence in his surface fleet. But either way it gets the same point across to Udet.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am sure he did not either. I would be skeptacle also after my first few Battleships and Battlecruiser got destroyed pretty quickly.

Either way the German surface fleet was not prepared for the war. His Admirals even told him this on several occasions.

 

[Hunter368]

I am sure he did not either. I would be skeptacle also after my first few Battleships and Battlecruiser got destroyed pretty quickly.

Either way the German surface fleet was not prepared for the war. His Admirals even told him this on several occasions.

I agree and that is what I am trying to point out to Udet. But he has not responded mmmmmm

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

He will.

 

[Hunter368]

I hope so I do enjoy talking to him, he has alot of different ideas which I like to hear. Its always easy to say everything that is known or that everyone else agrees on but harder to fight up the current so to speak. I will wait for him.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you. Many times he has good things to say, it is the way he comes across that gets people all riled up.

 

[Hunter368]

I agree with you. Many times he has good things to say, it is the way he comes across that gets people all riled up.

I agree, he does have of interesting ideas, he makes you think about things differently which is what I like.

 

[Udet]

Mr. Hunter368, hello:

Your first question: yes, English is my first language. I believe it got slightly overwhelmed by another language likewise spoken at home though. Do no pay too much attention to my english, i am crazy, so i speak accordingly (all other languages I am fluent in are all spoken the same).

It took me a few years of reading, seeing and hearing to conclude Germany did not intend to invade England.


Point (2) of your posting pretty much agrees with my views on the matter.
France was not a plan either. They got defeated alongside the British Expeditionary Force. Did Germany unleash any rampage to humilliate the defeated french? Not at all.

Treatment given to the defeated French in 1940 (occupied and non-occupied France, no claims to the french fleet, no claims to France´s african colonies, etc.) adds soundness to the case Mr. Hunter: Hitler´s gesture towards the west was authentic.

Very authentic and consistent. Far more consistent than both France´s and Britain´s contradictory policies in the continent, which lacked any intelligible meaning.

Who´s to deny having battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart -although not yet completed by 1940-, and battlecruisers Dunkerque and Strasbourg plus several more new french cruisers, added to the order of battle of your navy is a bad idea?

This is pure speculation, we will never know what would have happened if Hitler had actually attempted the seizure all those powerful french units and have them deployed to challenge British sea power manned by German crews. The vessels were constantly moving in north african ports, but some of them returned to Toulon.

That was speculation. Now the facts: we do know Hitler never even considered the thought. (Oddly, more french sailors perished to the guns of their British "allies").

I repeat, other than implementing the necessary measures to ensure any combat potential still left for the french would not be deployed against Germany, nothing excessive was imposed to the defeated size.

But Mr. Churchill continued to present Germany as the most fearsome threat, a threat to the continuation of the human species as we know it.


Now, point (3) deserves the following response: No. It was not aimed at you. It was an hypothetical scenario of two guys that have been fighting. One of them seeks peace, but the other guy refuses all offerings issued by the other. The whole situation will flow to reach one point when the guy who sought peace will say "to hell with you. you want a war? you will have it."

Pretty much what Hitler endured during the year of 1940 with Great Britain.

In fact mr. Hunter, had England been a plan for Hitler he would have launched everything out to get it. The outcome? Very difficult to figure out. A bloodbath for sure though.

We agree that when it came to achieve his goals, he did not save any efforts right?

You might re-read my comments and you will find I did say Hitler proceeded further with was the most feasible of the ventures to put the most pressure on England: an air campaign (Battle of Britain), to no avail.

Also you are correct when you say that in the end, the so called Battle of the Atlantic failed to achieve the primary goal. But hey, let´s place us on the platform I am herein referring to: 1940.

Although I have no numbers at hand, I believe the number of U-boats after the fall of France was not that large; still, I see Hitler ordering Admiral Dönitz to deploy as much as possible in the Channel accesses to attempt hindering Royal Navy´s operation against the German invasion force.

But hey, I am not going to move onto the fruitful "what ifs" hemisphere. It is pointless and meaningless. Hitler did not want to invade.

You also agreed with me: his fundamental goal was the east.

This has gotten just too long. Sorry.

Might add more stuff in next days.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The situation for the British was more like "Well, you've attacked and conqured several of my friends, given us a bloody nose and now, just when we are strong behind our defences and can give you back some of your own, your offering us peace? *Snigger* Bugger that for a game of soliders, you bully."

British policy had been for centuries that there should be no single, monolithic power bloc dominating the Continent. Hitler simply wasn't an astute enough historian to realise that the British would never accept Europe under any single power. Germany also completely misread the British character and determination.

How ever, what he did realise that the most basic prerequisite to sucessfully conquer England was the establishment of aerial superiority over the Channel and southern Englang. Without that both, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force could play merry hell with any invasion attempt.

The actual physical evidence that an invasion was intended, planned and prepared for is fairly overwhelming.

Germany began reconnisance of British radar and costal defences before the war had even begun. In May and August, 1939, General Wolfgang Martini, used the Graff Zepplin to conduct signals and radar intelligence operations over the southern and eastern UK.

Adolf Galland certainly though that Germany wanted to invade the UK. He noted in a post-war article that:

"Time was required to complete invasion preparations, especially by the navy. The Luftwaffe was to make good use of this breathing-space by carrying out independent operations aimed at securing air superiority. Though there was no deviation from the original purpose of invading Britain, the nature of operations began gradually to shift the emphasis to the strategic mission of the Luftwafe"

The official German study of British air defences from 1940-1941 seems to also think that there was the intention to invade:

"After the victorious conclusion on June 25th 1940, of the campaign against France, it was the intention of the German General Staff to force a swift defeat on the British by landing on the mainland of Britain"

it continues a little later

"Thus the only possibility open was to get the British bases into German hands. In these circumstances, the German High Command had decided to attack the British mainland; for this purpose, they had first to achieve air superiority"

Even Directive 16 has the title 'Preparations for a Landing Operation Against England'. Part of the LuftWaffes role described in the document is to "prevent air interdiction during the invasion"

More later

 

[102first_hussars]

Ill accept the possibility that Germany itself did not want to invade england, but Hitler himself f*cking dead on wanted england in his hands and those who argue that fact are seriously misinformed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hmmm....

Today Europe, tomorrow the world....

 

[Soren]

Hmm, I see the thread has been moved. Ill express my opinion on this later...

To the notion that Hitler was stupid, no he wasn't stupid, he was insane and very "misinformed". He wanted it all at once, and acted like a baby to get it, that was his mistake.

 

[Erich]

he was demented and stupid and his late war tactics wishing full control instead of relying on his experienced Wehrmacht staff proved it

 

[Soren]

he was demented and stupid and his late war tactics wishing full control instead of relying on his experienced Wehrmacht staff proved it

How can you call him stupid and demented Erich ? Sure he made some unwise strategical choices, but the man himself wasn't stupid, misinformed in the way of tactics and logistics(Not to mention human rights) sure, but not "Stupid".

His extreme paranoia and wishful thinking(Especially in the end), shows us he was mentally unhealthy, "insane" might be an appropriate word.

 

[Erich]

insane is a great word but also preoccupation with dementia. the man became totally warped after his near death experience and of course we know it would of been a God-send had he died with the others in the blast.

I feel earnestly that he indeed took a violent brain shake up which caused his dementia not often heard nor accepted during war time and the after to today but according to witnesses and copied official logbooks from superiro Stab offiziers not to mention his female staff it well appears that the guy lost real control mentally, so in effect he became over time ........... stupid

one of his hair brain schemes was after the disaster on 2 Novmeber 44 as he wanted to sack the entire Sturmfw (3) gruppen. Two of them had caused some terrible US bomber casualties but in so doing also lost as many heavy Sturms to the Us Mustang escorts. Hitler thought it was not enough, that every Strum should of given itself - pilots- in taking out 1-2 bombers, and in fact he was terribly upset that any Luftw. pilot landed safely in his outrage.

crazy, stupid ?

 

[Hunter368]

he was demented and stupid and his late war tactics wishing full control instead of relying on his experienced Wehrmacht staff proved it

How can you call him stupid and demented Erich ? Sure he made some unwise strategical choices, but the man himself wasn't stupid, misinformed in the way of tactics and logistics(Not to mention human rights) sure, but not "Stupid".

His extreme paranoia and wishful thinking(Especially in the end), shows us he was mentally unhealthy, "insane" might be an appropriate word.

Soren, I agree with you. Hitler was a genius at times and about somethings and a moron about other things. Tactics was not his strong suit for sure. Talking to people, knowing people, manipulating people, he was ambitious, thought big, those are some of the things he was good at. Being a mil. leader, tactics, strategy these were just a few of the things he was bad at. As the war went on he got more and more loonie. But few men in history can claim to have shaped history as much he as. If Hitler would of never lived think about all the things that would of been different (other than a hell of alot of people being alive that are now dead) in our world, I mean on the technical level mostly but human rights also. Don't get me wrong he was a evil man and I am not fan of his but he did do alot to shape our world in many ways or at the very least accelerated them happening. But this is alittle off subject but oh well.

 

[Hunter368]

insane is a great word but also preoccupation with dementia. the man became totally warped after his near death experience and of course we know it would of been a God-send had he died with the others in the blast.

I feel earnestly that he indeed took a violent brain shake up which caused his dementia not often heard nor accepted during war time and the after to today but according to witnesses and copied official logbooks from superiro Stab offiziers not to mention his female staff it well appears that the guy lost real control mentally, so in effect he became over time ........... stupid

one of his hair brain schemes was after the disaster on 2 Novmeber 44 as he wanted to sack the entire Sturmfw (3) gruppen. Two of them had caused some terrible US bomber casualties but in so doing also lost as many heavy Sturms to the Us Mustang escorts. Hitler thought it was not enough, that every Strum should of given itself - pilots- in taking out 1-2 bombers, and in fact he was terribly upset that any Luftw. pilot landed safely in his outrage.

crazy, stupid ?

Erich I think you are right too, in that as the war progressed Hitler got more and more loonie. I think everyone would agree with that. I think Soren is talking about before then, early in the war or even before the war.