Unknown cockpit 1941/42 RAF training

[rubicana]

Dear All - have this photo that I believe was taken at Polaris Flight Academy, Lancaster, California late 1941/early 1942. My grandfather was stationed there for WW2 flight training. He flew Stearman and BT-13 trainers (and also 'Link Trainers') and I presumed that this cockpit was from one of these. I have scoured the internet and studied very carefully cockpit shots of the above and not found any definitive match.

Just wondered if anybody has a view and can help in any way.

Many thanks Tom

 

[fubar57]

Hi Tom and welcome to the forum. Pretty sure its not a Stearman or BT-13 IP. Link Trainer had a few designs I think

 

[CATCH 22]

Dear All - have this photo that I believe was taken at Polaris Flight Academy, Lancaster, California late 1941/early 1942. My grandfather was stationed there for WW2 flight training. He flew Stearman and BT-13 trainers (and also 'Link Trainers') and I presumed that this cockpit was from one of these. I have scoured the internet and studied very carefully cockpit shots of the above and not found any definitive match.

Just wondered if anybody has a view and can help in any way.
Many thanks Tom

Hi Tom,
the transmitter on the right side of the cockpit is a Learadio - I don't know the exact model though; similar to this one:
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...ceiver_1_d49fa6185376df463b5b931fd1fd60e7.jpg
I don't think this is a Link trainer - I see a tubular frame behind the cockpit which looks more like from a real a/c.
I have a question: was your Granddad with the RAF?

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Dear All - have this photo that I believe was taken at Polaris Flight Academy, Lancaster, California late 1941/early 1942. My grandfather was stationed there for WW2 flight training. He flew Stearman and BT-13 trainers (and also 'Link Trainers') and I presumed that this cockpit was from one of these. I have scoured the internet and studied very carefully cockpit shots of the above and not found any definitive match.

Just wondered if anybody has a view and can help in any way.

Many thanks Tom

We had a WWII vintage "blue box" Link trainer at TD school in the Navy which was strictly ornamental, but "sort of" functional, and sometimes during coffee break we would fire it up for giggles. I was the only one in my class with a pilots license, so I always got elected to embarrass myself in it, to the amusement of the rest.
The instrument panel in this looks a lot like a Link, but the features of the starboard wall of the cockpit imply an actual aircraft. Every WWII link I've seen (museums and boneyards) were just plywood boxes, but this thing looks like welded steel tube and fabric. It has a radio, so likely not an open cockpit primary trainer. PT26? PT23? North American built a fixed gear basic trainer that preceded the AT6 and I believe the Brits bought a bunch. I think it was intended for the CPT program, so some private operators stateside may have had them. A lot of wartime government contract flying schools operated privately owned planes "requisitioned" from their owners after Pearl Harbor, and the first thing these schools had to do was go find and take possession of these planes from their often reluctant owners. Our local airport hosted such a school.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[rubicana]

Hi Tom,
the transmitter on the right side of the cockpit is a Learadio - I don't know the exact model though; similar to this one:
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...ceiver_1_d49fa6185376df463b5b931fd1fd60e7.jpg
I don't think this is a Link trainer - I see a tubular frame behind the cockpit which looks more like from a real a/c.
I have a question: was your Granddad with the RAF?

 

[rubicana]

Hi Catch 22 - ooh yes definitely a Learadio AMR receiver - thank you very much for this tantalising clue (I wouldn't have found that in a long long time!). Yes, my grandfather was a Lancaster pilot from May - July 1943. His last and fatal Op was Turin 13/14 July. A long journey including No. 2 BFTS (Polaris, Lancaster, California 41/42), various OTUs, CU and ending up at 12 Squadron, Wickenby at the height of the Battle of the Ruhr. Regards Tom

 

[CATCH 22]

Hi Catch 22 - ooh yes definitely a Learadio AMR receiver - thank you very much for this tantalising clue (I wouldn't have found that in a long long time!). Yes, my grandfather was a Lancaster pilot from May - July 1943. His last and fatal Op was Turin 13/14 July. A long journey including No. 2 BFTS (Polaris, Lancaster, California 41/42), various OTUs, CU and ending up at 12 Squadron, Wickenby at the height of the Battle of the Ruhr. Regards Tom

Hi Tom, thank you for the additional details about your grandfather!
The Learadio detail was not that "tantalizing" at all - the "L" in the logo is very characteristic and I've seen this type of radios in WWII a/cs. As with some earlier threads in this forum I tried to point towards something I know and I believe there are many others who will know something else. As with a big puzzle one cannot see the whole picture from the very beginning but can start with the "corner pieces". I hope somebody else will add more details.
As Wes mentioned above privately owned a/cs have been used for the CPT program. It is not impossible that this is a photo of e.g. some (former) civil airplane.
Cheers!

 

[M-62A3]

Hi Tom, thank you for the additional details about your grandfather!
The Learadio detail was not that "tantalizing" at all - the "L" in the logo is very characteristic and I've seen this type of radios in WWII a/cs. As with some earlier threads in this forum I tried to point towards something I know and I believe there are many others who will know something else. As with a big puzzle one cannot see the whole picture from the very beginning but can start with the "corner pieces". I hope somebody else will add more details.
As Wes mentioned above privately owned a/cs have been used for the CPT program. It is not impossible that this is a photo of e.g. some (former) civil airplane.
Cheers!

Tom,
Following on from the suggestion made by Wes...

Are you aware that, Polaris Flight Academy, the civilian contractor that operated No.2 B.F.T.S. also had a contract with the RAF to operate a U.K. Refresher School? These approved civilian schools trained/refreshed U.S. volunteer pilots selected for RAF training and service - from very early 1941 and thus prior to the BFTS scheme. Polaris operated one such establishment at Glendale, CA and eventually it moved to Lancaster. I think all the UKR schools closed soon after December 1941. The UKR schools did indeed operate some converted civil a/c. At Glendale Polaris used three Stearman C-3Rs, three Spartan 7Ws and the prototype Stinson Model O - amongst other types. I know at least one of the Polaris Spartans visited Lancaster because there a photograph of it taken there by another #2 BFTS veteran.

In my estimation the panel looks like a form of blind flying panel. As instrument flying was part of the RAF syllabus it is possible a number of the PT-13Bs flown at #2 BFTS were converted to instrument training - definitely one #2 BFTS PT-13Bs is recorded as being re-designated PT-13C. A similar conversion was made to a number of PT-19As at #3 B.F.T.S. in Oklahoma. However, as far as I know none of these primary trainers were fitted with a radio.

Having looked at the cockpit illustrations in the pilot training manual for the BT-13, I would tend to discount this as the likely type.

Returning to the Polaris UKR aircraft.
1) The Stearman C-3Rs were a three-seat biplane - dual passenger seats in front cockpit and single pilot cockpit behind. The Polaris C-3Rs had the front cockpit converted to single place and included blind flying instruments.
2) The Spartan 7W Executive was a well equipped four seat aircraft with a blind-flying panel and radio and thus used by the Spartan (Oklahoma) and Polaris (California) at least until the Lease Lend Act enabled AT-6's to be made available to the UKR schools. I seem to recall the UKR school at Dallas used Beechcraft 17s for a similar purpose.
3) The Stinson Model O was specially equipped for instrument training.

Unfortunately I do not have cockpit photos of any other above type that would help in your quest.
Just a suggestion to broaden your search.
Tony

 

[XBe02Drvr]

In my estimation the panel looks like a form of blind flying panel.

BINGO! The key observation. Since it appears the fuselage is steel tube construction rather than aluminum monocoque, that kind of narrows the field, likely eliminating the Spartan, the Valiant, and probably the Stinson. The Stinson was steel tube, but it was an open cockpit parasol monoplane, which would seem problematical for radio communications.
Possibly a Fairchild PT19, PT23, or PT26, although the open cockpit PT19 would be hard to imagine with a radio. OTOH, I've read that the Canadians actually modified PT19s by adding canopies before PT26s became available to them. The mystery continues.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[CATCH 22]

Possibly a Fairchild PT19, PT23, or PT26, although the open cockpit PT19 would be hard to imagine with a radio. OTOH, I've read that the Canadians actually modified PT19s by adding canopies before PT26s became available to them. The mystery continues.
Cheers,
Wes

I was checking all of the above mentioned a/cs the other day - they have this characteristic elliptic (oval) dashboard:

The initial photo shows a different configuration, IMHO.
The photos are from here.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The initial photo shows a different configuration, IMHO.

That's true, but the OP, I believe was referring to an instrument trainer, and these panels aren't adequate for instrument training, so if it was one of these airframes, it was modified. OTOH, the rear cockpit control lock image resembles structurally the original photo. Properly equipped, one of these Fairchilds would make a good instrument trainer, as they're docile, stable, and honest flyers, good for building confidence in challenged young pilots struggling to make those pesky needles behave.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[M-62A3]

That's true, but the OP, I believe was referring to an instrument trainer, and these panels aren't adequate for instrument training, so if it was one of these airframes, it was modified. OTOH, the rear cockpit control lock image resembles structurally the original photo. Properly equipped, one of these Fairchilds would make a good instrument trainer, as they're docile, stable, and honest flyers, good for building confidence in challenged young pilots struggling to make those pesky needles behave.
Cheers,
Wes

Tom, Wes and all,
I can say with total certainty this is not a Fairchild PT-19, -23, or 26 cockpit. I have studied the type for many years and would have recognized the cockpit if it was. I would also stress that no Fairchild PT's were assigned to any USAAC or RAF schools in California.

To quote my own earlier post - "In my estimation the panel looks like a form of blind flying panel". It is definitely not the standard RAF Blind-flying panel, such as that fitted to the Fairchild PT-26, as this included a directional giro and giro-stabilized artificial horizon instrument, where as the photograph shows a simple turn & bank indicator.

I would like to point out that despite the obvious aluminium skin, the Spartan 7W, the BT-13 Valiant and Stinson Model O each had a steel tube primary structure in the cockpit area at least.

On further reflection I think this cockpit is too narrow and too "spartan", (in the accepted sense), to be a 7W. The 7W Executives were four-seaters and originally designed for very wealthy customers. The amount of available light in the photograph suggests it may be an open cockpit.

The Stinson Model O, NC13817, used at Glendale was leased from another operator. The FAA records show by 1941 it had fitted with a "Rec.Trans. & interphone" weighing 52.5 lbs but there are no indications as to the manufacturer(s). No original example survive but a reproduction Model O was created a few years ago from remains of a different Model Stinson. I have found no cockpit pics.

The only C-3 cockpit photographs I have found searching today are from surviving aircraft and may be quite different from the Polaris Model C-3R's of 1941/42. Many C-3s became crop dusters in the 1950's and much of their original equipment would have removed. However, the FAA records do show that two of the Polaris C-3R's were fitted with "Lear AMR1 receiver installed on rear instrument panel" during their conversion to two seat trainers by Aircraft Industries Corp., Glendale, California, in April 1941.

Attached is the only photograph I have of the three Polaris Flight Academy Stearman C-3Rs, plus two relevant extracts from the official diary of No.2 British Flying Training School, Lancaster, CA. I should point out that in "2-41.06", "17 Polaris School" - at the end of first paragraph the date "20th December 1942" is a typo and should read 20th December 1941.
Tony

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I think this cockpit is too narrow and too "spartan", (in the accepted sense), to be a 7W.

Concur. The Spartan 7W was the Gulfstream of its day.

the FAA records do show that two of the Polaris C-3R's were fitted with "Lear AMR1 receiver installed on rear instrument panel" during their conversion to two seat trainers by Aircraft Industries Corp., Glendale, California, in April 1941.

Nice job of research! Looks like you've dug up a winner.
I wouldn't want to do full-blown instrument instruction in a cockpit that limited. That said, all of my students (primary, commercial, and instrument) did get a good solid workout on needle-ball-airspeed, including unusual attitude recoveries and 180° "return to VMC" turns.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Graeme]

Just a suggestion - but try reaching out to the "King of Cockpits" - Mel Reynolds. He was the Stig of the "What Cockpit?" thread on PPRuNe.
He now resides as the quiz compiler on AviaQuiz...

 

[rubicana]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts, ideas and suggestions. My grandfather was definitely at Polaris in December 1941 at the time of Pearl Harbour. The Stearman C-3R certainly looks a winner to me and would make sense. The photo of the Stearman over a valley in LA is just wonderful

 

[M-62A3]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts, ideas and suggestions. My grandfather was definitely at Polaris in December 1941 at the time of Pearl Harbour. The Stearman C-3R certainly looks a winner to me and would make sense. The photo of the Stearman over a valley in LA is just wonderful

Rubicana,
Could you try and contact me please. I have new information relating to surviving Polaris Stearman C3Rs. I have tried to send a PM but as you may be new user perhaps the PM system will not work for you.
M-62A3