Unknown Rudder

[Kurtl]

Gentlemen, anyone able to identify this aircraft rudder? Thanks alot! - Kurtl

 

[Airframes]

A tad difficult without some size comparison. The apparent lack of any trim tab location might indicate that it's an elevator, and not a rudder. However, the shape of the angled section of the remaining outer skin, at the top, and the 'blunt' bottom end, could perhaps suggest that it's a metal-skinned late Spitfire (Mk22/24) or Seafire (Mk47) rudder. The overall shape more or less corresponds. Some dimensions or comparison might help.

 

[Marcogrifo]

Interesting finding...and yes, we need more dimension info for speculating about
Are there any number or mark still visible on it?
Where it was retrieved?
The background in those pics look so...mediterranean

Cheers

 

[Colin1]

Is there any stencilling still visible on it?
A square with a diagonal line and the initials DTD will at least put it in the RAF Commonwealth basket. Tend to agree it's difficult to tell if it's a rudder or an elevator

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think it's a rudder since the sections where the surface area is missing would normally be where fabric is.

 

[GrauGeist]

By the lack of trim tabs, it puts it's age towards the early 40's, late 30's as a guess without more information.

My first impression was that it was an elevator stuck upright.

I think it's a rudder since the sections where the surface area is missing would normally be where fabric is.

I don't think there was fabric on there, if you look closely, there's deteriorated supports with rivet holes and skin still attached to the other side. It looks as though it was buried for a number of years.

 

[Colin1]

A direct, plan view shot would help too
it would give a better idea of the measurement relationships between chord, rudder horn and height (if it's a rudder)

Edit: and a view of the other side eg linkage attachment points etc

 

[Airframes]

I agree Dave. It's not very common to have both metal and fabric coverings on control surfaces. The missing piece(s) have either corroded away, or been taken as souvenirs perhaps. The fact that there is no apparent trim tab evidence doesn't preclude it being post early '40's, as some aircraft had fixed tabs, made of wood, plastic, 'tin plate' etc, some none at all, or perhaps, if an elevator, on one stabiliser only. The design and construction points at late 40's, possibly even later still.

 

[GrauGeist]

Think so, Terry?

I looked close at the area where one would be (assuming it's all there) and I didn't see any holes or recesses were a tab might have been attached.

This is a heck of a challenge, huh?

 

[vikingBerserker]

Hmm you could be right about it not being fabric.

Pic #2, the left side of the "wing" looks like it comes to a sharp point, where as the right side looks like it's more blunt. Would that not be the side facing more towards airflow then away?

 

[Airframes]

Certainly is a challenge Dave. The first pic has a hint of late Mark Spit, whereas the other angles make it look too narrow in the chord for the Spit. The more I look at it, the more I think it could be an elevator, especially now that I've noticed that what I originally thought was the mounting post is in fact a steel tube it just happens to be sitting on, or so it seems, which might point to its being linked through the tail to the opposite control surface.
Definitely need some scale to take things further though.
VB, yes, the 'thin' edge, where one surface is missing, is the trailing edge. If we had some measurements, and preferably a known object alongside, to provide a visual comparison, it would give a better idea, as there are a number of factors which could point to rudder or elevator, including the shape of the leading edge. It may be that a relatively large section is missing from the bottom, or the inboard end, if it is an elevator, as opposed to a rudder. The geographic location of where it was found could also help, or at least narrow the options.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Dammit! I just noticed with your comment; I thought both surface sides were missing not only one. (all pics of the same side).

Duh!

 

[Kurtl]

The part was found under water about 10 km west the island of Unije in the northern adriatic. It was raised about 10 to 15 years ago, maybe even longer. I checked the part in real but could not find any numbers, stampings or anything else in special. There is another picture made a few years ago that shows the opposite side. Over all height I would guess about 1 meter, maybe a little bit more. For me it looked like both sides were made of the same sheet aluminium.

It's possible that the rudder/vertical stabilizer is not complete anymore. What you think about the outer part of the vertical stabilizer of a Mosquito? Just a guess.

Kurtl

 

[GrauGeist]

Thanks for the better photo, Kurtl...this may help some.

Guys, do I see remnants of white paint in a few places?

Perhaps we're not looking at a part from a war machine, but the remains of a civil aircraft...

 

[ccheese]

I think it's part of an elevator. It doesn't look big enough to be a rudder. However, what it came off of is beyond me.

Charles

 

[Wurger]

I think Charles can be right.This looks much more like an elevator than a rudder.

 

[GrauGeist]

I was going through some images, and I saw this J5R Alpine (about 1951-53 vintage aircraft) and it occurred to me that the elevator looked very close to what we're looking for here.

I sure wish the image showed the elevators better, but by comparing the elevator to the rudder in the image (also note the rod entering the hole at the base of the rudder matches the rod in Kurtl's photos), I'd say that Kurtl's photos are definately an elevator.

I know this isn't an exact match, but it sure is a good example

 

[Colin1]

New pic
judging by the orientation of the writing (top to bottom), I'd say it was a rudder based on the assumption that if it was an elevator, the writing would more than likely read left to right

 

[Colin1]

What you think about the outer part of the vertical stabilizer of a Mosquito?

Funny that you should suggest that
It passes quite closely for either a Mosquito rudder OR elevator though without any traces of trim tabs unfortunately.

I got the Fiat CR42 close but not closely enough I believe, the apex of the rudder horn is flatter on the Fiat unit.

 

[Marcogrifo]

New pic
judging by the orientation of the writing (top to bottom), I'd say it was a rudder based on the assumption that if it was an elevator, the writing would more than likely read left to right

Hmm, isn't the writing applied later on the wreck by the retriever/owner?
It seems they used it like a shop or bar sign (I can read "Pilot's........")?
And yes, methinks it's an elevator.

Cheers