Unknown Rudder

Discussion in 'Aircraft Requests' started by Kurtl, Jul 11, 2009.

  1. Kurtl

    Kurtl Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Gentlemen, anyone able to identify this aircraft rudder? Thanks alot! - Kurtl
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    47,630
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    A tad difficult without some size comparison. The apparent lack of any trim tab location might indicate that it's an elevator, and not a rudder. However, the shape of the angled section of the remaining outer skin, at the top, and the 'blunt' bottom end, could perhaps suggest that it's a metal-skinned late Spitfire (Mk22/24) or Seafire (Mk47) rudder. The overall shape more or less corresponds. Some dimensions or comparison might help.
     
  3. Marcogrifo

    Marcogrifo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Genoa, Italy
    #3 Marcogrifo, Jul 11, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
    Interesting finding...and yes, we need more dimension info for speculating about :D
    Are there any number or mark still visible on it?
    Where it was retrieved?
    The background in those pics look so...mediterranean ;)

    Cheers
     
  4. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Engineer and overgrown schoolboy
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Is there any stencilling still visible on it?
    A square with a diagonal line and the initials DTD will at least put it in the RAF Commonwealth basket. Tend to agree it's difficult to tell if it's a rudder or an elevator
     
  5. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,064
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    I think it's a rudder since the sections where the surface area is missing would normally be where fabric is.
     
  6. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,185
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    #6 GrauGeist, Jul 11, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
    By the lack of trim tabs, it puts it's age towards the early 40's, late 30's as a guess without more information.

    My first impression was that it was an elevator stuck upright.

    I don't think there was fabric on there, if you look closely, there's deteriorated supports with rivet holes and skin still attached to the other side. It looks as though it was buried for a number of years.
     
  7. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Engineer and overgrown schoolboy
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    #7 Colin1, Jul 11, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
    A direct, plan view shot would help too
    it would give a better idea of the measurement relationships between chord, rudder horn and height (if it's a rudder)

    Edit: and a view of the other side eg linkage attachment points etc
     
  8. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    47,630
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    I agree Dave. It's not very common to have both metal and fabric coverings on control surfaces. The missing piece(s) have either corroded away, or been taken as souvenirs perhaps. The fact that there is no apparent trim tab evidence doesn't preclude it being post early '40's, as some aircraft had fixed tabs, made of wood, plastic, 'tin plate' etc, some none at all, or perhaps, if an elevator, on one stabiliser only. The design and construction points at late 40's, possibly even later still.
     
  9. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,185
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    Think so, Terry?

    I looked close at the area where one would be (assuming it's all there) and I didn't see any holes or recesses were a tab might have been attached.

    This is a heck of a challenge, huh? :thumbleft:
     
  10. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,064
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Hmm you could be right about it not being fabric.

    Pic #2, the left side of the "wing" looks like it comes to a sharp point, where as the right side looks like it's more blunt. Would that not be the side facing more towards airflow then away?
     
  11. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    47,630
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Certainly is a challenge Dave. The first pic has a hint of late Mark Spit, whereas the other angles make it look too narrow in the chord for the Spit. The more I look at it, the more I think it could be an elevator, especially now that I've noticed that what I originally thought was the mounting post is in fact a steel tube it just happens to be sitting on, or so it seems, which might point to its being linked through the tail to the opposite control surface.
    Definitely need some scale to take things further though.
    VB, yes, the 'thin' edge, where one surface is missing, is the trailing edge. If we had some measurements, and preferably a known object alongside, to provide a visual comparison, it would give a better idea, as there are a number of factors which could point to rudder or elevator, including the shape of the leading edge. It may be that a relatively large section is missing from the bottom, or the inboard end, if it is an elevator, as opposed to a rudder. The geographic location of where it was found could also help, or at least narrow the options.
     
  12. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,064
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Dammit! I just noticed with your comment; I thought both surface sides were missing not only one. (all pics of the same side).

    Duh!
     
  13. Kurtl

    Kurtl Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    The part was found under water about 10 km west the island of Unije in the northern adriatic. It was raised about 10 to 15 years ago, maybe even longer. I checked the part in real but could not find any numbers, stampings or anything else in special. There is another picture made a few years ago that shows the opposite side. Over all height I would guess about 1 meter, maybe a little bit more. For me it looked like both sides were made of the same sheet aluminium.

    It's possible that the rudder/vertical stabilizer is not complete anymore. What you think about the outer part of the vertical stabilizer of a Mosquito? Just a guess.

    Kurtl
     

    Attached Files:

  14. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,185
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    Thanks for the better photo, Kurtl...this may help some.

    Guys, do I see remnants of white paint in a few places?

    Perhaps we're not looking at a part from a war machine, but the remains of a civil aircraft...
     
  15. ccheese

    ccheese Member In Perpetuity
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,669
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    R E T I R E D !!
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, Va.
    I think it's part of an elevator. It doesn't look big enough to be a rudder. However, what it came off of is beyond me.

    Charles
     
  16. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,531
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #16 Wurger, Jul 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
    I think Charles can be right.This looks much more like an elevator than a rudder.
     
  17. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,185
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    I was going through some images, and I saw this J5R Alpine (about 1951-53 vintage aircraft) and it occurred to me that the elevator looked very close to what we're looking for here.

    I sure wish the image showed the elevators better, but by comparing the elevator to the rudder in the image (also note the rod entering the hole at the base of the rudder matches the rod in Kurtl's photos), I'd say that Kurtl's photos are definately an elevator.

    I know this isn't an exact match, but it sure is a good example :)
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Engineer and overgrown schoolboy
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    New pic
    judging by the orientation of the writing (top to bottom), I'd say it was a rudder based on the assumption that if it was an elevator, the writing would more than likely read left to right
     
  19. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Engineer and overgrown schoolboy
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Funny that you should suggest that
    It passes quite closely for either a Mosquito rudder OR elevator though without any traces of trim tabs unfortunately.

    I got the Fiat CR42 close but not closely enough I believe, the apex of the rudder horn is flatter on the Fiat unit.
     
  20. Marcogrifo

    Marcogrifo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Genoa, Italy
    Hmm, isn't the writing applied later on the wreck by the retriever/owner?
    It seems they used it like a shop or bar sign (I can read "Pilot's........")?
    And yes, methinks it's an elevator.

    Cheers
     
Loading...

Share This Page