US fighter production. Feasibility to scale up?

[cvairwerks]

In this case and a few other aircraft, it's due to stuff that goes BOOM......

 

[J_P_C]

Realistically, about 36-48 months to bring a new facility online from the ground up. Realize that we use about 5 million square feet of building space currently, just for production and production support. Pratt is somewhere around 26-30 months from date of order to delivery on engines. It would take about 18-36 months for delivery on the specialized robotic tooling, set up and calibration. You also have to find, hire and train hundreds of employees to do the actual work.

Consider this...the F-16 line was moved from Fort Worth to Greenville, SC, and it took almost 3 years to get that line completely up and running. As areas in the FW operation completed the last scheduled parts, they were closed out and moved to the new facility and set up. Greenville just mated their first fuselage.

Is Greenville line really running???? What i've heard customers have been informed that F16 delivery will be delayed by further 24 months - at least... Ive observed such "successful" relocations couple times during my career. GE moving nacelle production to Alabama - well i don't think they have to build even one, Smiths moving aerostructure components production to China - number rejected parts during first 3 years equals 100%, later it was just 60-75% and this is just two most notable examples. I think most of "industry leaders" underestimate human factor in aerospace industry. Most of airplanes is build manually with very little automation involved and training machinists or assembly workers to have acceptable quality level taking 2-3 years at least. Not mentioning how difficult is to keep your trained workforce.

 

[cvairwerks]

From what I understand, the first airframe is in mate and should be moving to final assembly fairly soon. First flight is scheduled before the end of this year. The first V models were not supposed to be delivered before late 2023 originally anyway.

The big delay is due to a single supplier and has slowed things quite a bit. All F-16 new production was slowed by this problem.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Is Greenville line really running???? What i've heard customers have been informed that F16 delivery will be delayed by further 24 months - at least... Ive observed such "successful" relocations couple times during my career. GE moving nacelle production to Alabama - well i don't think they have to build even one, Smiths moving aerostructure components production to China - number rejected parts during first 3 years equals 100%, later it was just 60-75% and this is just two most notable examples. I think most of "industry leaders" underestimate human factor in aerospace industry. Most of airplanes is build manually with very little automation involved and training machinists or assembly workers to have acceptable quality level taking 2-3 years at least. Not mentioning how difficult is to keep your trained workforce.

Excellent points! Additionally, there is a shortage of aircraft workers in many parts of the US, and those who have A&P Licenses are quickly snatched up to companies who are willing to pay top dollar for their services. Being retired, it’s kind of frustrating watching this because there was a time in my career I was hanging on by my fingertips.

 

[special ed]

Thanks for the info. I thought the XB-24 in the video was the original prototype because of all the little windows.

Re: post 95

 

[special ed]

As a bit of worker info, this is from memory, while microfilming records for a nuclear plant construction in southern Mississippi. Apparently the big bosses up north were complaining about the slow pace. The on site boss said there was absolutely no problem with the employees' work and skill level. The problem was with the various hunting seasons. The absenteeism was what was the cause the delay. The local saying was, "If there's a season, there's a reason." From squirrel to deer, primitive(bow and arrow) , black powder, high power, to duck season, etc. It has to do with the mild climate.

 

[Snautzer01]

As a bit of worker info, this is from memory, while microfilming records for a nuclear plant construction in southern Mississippi. Apparently the big bosses up north were complaining about the slow pace. The on site boss said there was absolutely no problem with the employees' work and skill level. The problem was with the various hunting seasons. The absenteeism was what was the cause the delay. The local saying was, "If there's a season, there's a reason." From squirrel to deer, primitive(bow and arrow) , black powder, high power, to duck season, etc. It has to do with the mild climate.

Mississippi employee

 

[BobB]

Realistically, about 36-48 months to bring a new facility online from the ground up. Realize that we use about 5 million square feet of building space currently, just for production and production support. Pratt is somewhere around 26-30 months from date of order to delivery on engines. It would take about 18-36 months for delivery on the specialized robotic tooling, set up and calibration. You also have to find, hire and train hundreds of employees to do the actual work.

Consider this...the F-16 line was moved from Fort Worth to Greenville, SC, and it took almost 3 years to get that line completely up and running. As areas in the FW operation completed the last scheduled parts, they were closed out and moved to the new facility and set up. Greenville just mated their first fuselage.

You obviously aren't qualified to be in management. People are interchangeable so you just need to determine the required headcount, then hire whoever is standing out on the street. Yes, there are people who really believe that. Good first level supervision is really important and it can be hard to get qualified people for that who are willing to take abuse from their management.

 

[BobB]

As a bit of worker info, this is from memory, while microfilming records for a nuclear plant construction in southern Mississippi. Apparently the big bosses up north were complaining about the slow pace. The on site boss said there was absolutely no problem with the employees' work and skill level. The problem was with the various hunting seasons. The absenteeism was what was the cause the delay. The local saying was, "If there's a season, there's a reason." From squirrel to deer, primitive(bow and arrow) , black powder, high power, to duck season, etc. It has to do with the mild climate.

Lockheed opened a feeder plant in Clarksburg, West Virginia in the 1960's. An English engineer who was sent there said that they couldn't believe that he wasn't going deer hunting. People offered to loan him a rifle thinking that he must have left his at home. He also said that they couldn't believe how easy the work was compared to coal mining. After they got some experience, they were beating the standard production hours for assemblies so new standards were set and then they beat them too.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You obviously aren't qualified to be in management. People are interchangeable so you just need to determine the required headcount, then hire whoever is standing out on the street. Yes, there are people who really believe that. Good first level supervision is really important and it can be hard to get qualified people for that who are willing to take abuse from their management.

Have you ever worked in an aircraft production facility or on an actual aircraft production line? And please do not criticize or try to put someone down because of their post, especially if you don’t know their background. I’ll let you answer my question though, but I will tell you for starters that you are wrong about people “being interchangeable“ with regards to working at an aircraft manufacturer. It’s quite evident you know little about the skill and pay structure and unions that exist within these companies. So please, enlighten us with your aircraft manufacturing management experience.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Have you ever worked in an aircraft production facility or on an actual aircraft production line? And please do not criticize or try to put someone down because of their post, especially if you don’t know their background. I’ll let you answer my question though, but I will tell you for starters that you are wrong about people “being interchangeable“ with regards to working at an aircraft manufacturer. It’s quite evident you know little about the skill and pay structure and unions that exist within these companies. So please, enlighten us with your aircraft manufacturing management experience.

As someone who works just upstairs from an aircraft assembly line I’m waiting this answer as well.

 

[Greg Boeser]

I believe the line

Yes, there are people who really believe that.

gives away the game.
He was being sassy.

 

[cvairwerks]

I assumed that Bob was being facetious about it.

 

[buffnut453]

This may be too obscure for many on the forum, but back in the 1980s there was a British comedy sketch show called "Not the Nine o'Clock News." It launched the career or Rowan Atkinson and many other British comedians, including Mel Smith who had a brief role in "The Princess Bride."

One famous Not the Nine o'Clock News skit was a dig against British Leyland, the nationalized car manufacturer that was infamous for creating ugly, unreliable vehicles. At the time, some German and Japanese cars were advertised as being built by new-fangled robots, while BL's unionized workforce resisted such efficiencies...hence the sketch:



Somehow it seemed appropriate....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

”feeder plant” Never heard that one. When I worked at Lockheed, I remember the Clarksburg WV plant manufacturing C-130 subassemblies and wire harnesses. The facility was considered a corporation owned subcontractor.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe the line

gives away the game.
He was being sassy.

I assumed that Bob was being facetious about it.

Went right over my head, wooosh…

 

[GrauGeist]

Went right over my head, wooosh…

Dunno why, but that just reminded me of when I was a kid and if you weren't paying attention or something went over your head, the guys (WWII airmen vets) would say:
"Come in B-19, you're overshooting the field!"

 

[EwenS]

This may be too obscure for many on the forum, but back in the 1980s there was a British comedy sketch show called "Not the Nine o'Clock News." It launched the career or Rowan Atkinson and many other British comedians, including Mel Smith who had a brief role in "The Princess Bride."

One famous Not the Nine o'Clock News skit was a dig against British Leyland, the nationalized car manufacturer that was infamous for creating ugly, unreliable vehicles. At the time, some German and Japanese cars were advertised as being built by new-fangled robots, while BL's unionized workforce resisted such efficiencies...hence the sketch:



Somehow it seemed appropriate....

It was actually a skit on the 1978 TV advert for the then new Fiat Strada which used the strapline “handbuilt by robots”. It was called the Ritmo in some markets. Built between 1978 and 1988.

 

[buffnut453]

It was actually a skit on the 1978 TV advert for the then new Fiat Strada which used the strapline “handbuilt by robots”. It was called the Ritmo in some markets. Built between 1978 and 1988.

Thanks Ewen. I'd completely forgotten that advert....but, then, I was only 9 when it came out and I didn't spend much time indoors watching TV.

 

[J_P_C]

Additionally, during the 1940s, business did not have to deal with a lot of OSHA and environmental requirements that have to be in place in a factory. You’re also looking at aircraft that are probably 100 times more complicated than what was being produced during World War II.

i think you are slightly wrong - aerostructures are probably 300 times more complex, powerplant is 600 times more complex, avionics and weapon system are light years ahead in a term of complexity, and then... software part begeens