Vichy France has 5 aircraft carriers in WW2

[Kevin J]

The French constructed the hulls of 5 Normandie class battleships in WW1. Their guns went to the Maginot line. Four hulls were scrapped, Bearn was completed as an aircraft carrier, but supposing all 5 became carriers. What impact would this have had on their conflicts with the RN and their dealings with the Japanese could this have had? Their fighter would have been the Dewoitine D. 790, their TBR the Breguet 810 which were intended for the Joffre class aircraft carriers which were never completed. Any thoughts guys?

 

[Admiral Beez]

If France has carriers, no impact on Japan. The 1930s French Navy never deployed to FIC in any strength, which makes sense considering you're at war with Germany by summer 1939. Well before the Japanese conflict begins in Dec. 1941 any French carriers are sunk, interned or scuttled in French, Caribbean or North African ports, same as the French battlefleet and the rest of France's Navy.

Now, if one of the carriers joins the Free French and makes it to the USA that might be useful on the Allied side. This is what happened to the battleship Richelieu, per Wikipedia, "moving to Free French control after the Allied invasion of North Africa in November 1942. After being sent to the United States for repairs and an extensive modernization, the ship served with the British Home Fleet in early 1944". An updated French carrier in 1944 would likely join the BPF and equip with a mix of USN and RN aircraft types, and contribute to Operation Meridian and fight at Okinawa, where Kamikaze attacks may test the French carrier's decks.

What I would like is for Britain to see the Dewoitine D.790 fighter and buy the license to make Merlin powered versions, IMO, there is no other inline-powered carrier fighter in WW2 that had the wide track undercarriage, folding wings and good looks as the Dewoitine.

Giving Britain its best naval fighter in time for early war service would be the greatest contribution of the French naval aviation program. I would have the plans shipped to CC&F in Fort William, Canada to produce hundreds for the FAA instead of Hurricanes and Sea Hurricanes, so as not to disrupt Home production of RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes. Then RN carriers need only to sail to Halifax or in good weather to James Bay to fly-on their fighters.

 

[Kevin J]

If France has carriers, no impact on Japan. The 1930s French Navy never deployed to FIC in any strength, which makes sense considering you're at war with Germany by summer 1939. Well before the Japanese conflict begins in Dec. 1941 any French carriers are sunk, interned or scuttled in French, Caribbean or North African ports, same as the French battlefleet and the rest of France's Navy.

Now, if one of the carriers joins the Free French and makes it to the USA that might be useful on the Allied side. This is what happened to the battleship Richelieu, per Wikipedia, "moving to Free French control after the Allied invasion of North Africa in November 1942. After being sent to the United States for repairs and an extensive modernization, the ship served with the British Home Fleet in early 1944". An updated French carrier in 1944 would likely join the BPF and equip with a mix of USN and RN aircraft types, and contribute to Operation Meridian and fight at Okinawa, where Kamikaze attacks may test the French carrier's decks.

Now, what I would like is for Britain to see the Dewoitine D.790 fighter and buy the license to make Merlin powered versions, IMO, there is no other inline-powered carrier fighter in WW2 that had the wide track undercarriage, folding wings and good looks as the Dewoitine.

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Giving Britain its best naval fighter in time for early war service would be the greatest contribution of the French naval aviation program. I would have the plans shipped to CC&F in Fort William, Canada to produce hundreds for the FAA instead of Hurricanes, so as not to disrupt Home production of Spitifres and Hurricanes. Then RN carriers need only to sail to Halifax or in good weather to James Bay to fly-on their fighters.

My thought is that with these slow carriers you can run the straits of Gibraltar and get them out into the Atlantic, perhaps for a run down to Dakar, then round the Cape into the Indian Ocean, perhaps continuing as far as French Indo-China.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My thought is that with these slow carriers you can run the straits of Gibraltar and get them out into the Atlantic, perhaps for a run down to Dakar, then round the Cape into the Indian Ocean, perhaps continuing as far as French Indo-China.

Why? France is at war, you have to stay at home to fight. And once France has surrendered, the carriers, same as the battleships are now blockaded by the Brifish fleet, demanding either your surrender or destruction. The carriers won't be treated any differently. We know that the French Admirals in North Africa and Home bases had no interest in joining the British, so the carriers will be scuttled or sunk by the RN.

If a French carrier is in open water, it will be hunted down like Bearn, forced into internment in some French colony and left to rust. There's no way the Brits will allow a French carrier to transit from the Mediterranean or North Atlantic to FIC. Japan was putting pressure on FIC since the surrender, and by Sept. 1940 FIC was a Japanese occupied territory. No way a French carrier goes to FIC where it likely gets turned over to the IJN. The RN will sink it enroute. Considering how the new French battleships weren't completed and equipped for their battle with the British, we can assume this French carrier is in equally rough shape, likely with little to no functioning CAG. It will be HMS Hermes' (the sole RN carrier in the Indian Ocean ) and her twelve Stringbags' finest hour.

 

[fubar57]

Interesting....What could have been done to make SeaLion work?

 

[pinehilljoe]

If all 5 had been built as CVs, what would not have been built, if you assume a fixed Defense Budget. Would the CVs have been built at the cost of not building the Dunkerques or less miles of the Maginot Line?

 

[Shortround6]

Just put a few torpedoes into them and put them out of their misery after taking off the crews.

Unless modified out of all recognition the Bearn and her erstwhile sisters would be among the worst aircraft carriers ever built.

picture of a Bearn aircraft elevator.

and for perspective.

Picture shows middle and aft elevators. forward one is smaller.

The ship is pitifully slow with mixed propulsion, Reciprocating engines on the wing shafts for endurance/range with turbines on the center shafts for "speed" which means that while on paper it has decent range it is at low speed (10-12 knots) and at higher speeds is going to burn fuel like crazy, high speeds also take a toll on reciprocating machinery (breakdowns). AA armament is pathetic.

Somehow the idea of taking a landplane with perhaps rather questionable low speed handling characteristics and using it as the main fighter on a slow carrier doesn't seem like a war winning idea either.

 

[Kevin J]

If all 5 had been built as CVs, what would not have been built, if you assume a fixed Defense Budget. Would the CVs have been built at the cost of not building the Dunkerques or less miles of the Maginot Line?

It's either that or no L'armee de l'aire.

 

[GrauGeist]

As it happens, the Germans captured the Degrasse but never completed it and it languished just the same as the captured Italian Carriers.

*IF* the French did have 5 carriers, they would have each needed a support compliment and the French fleet wasn't large enough to accommodate that need.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Was she the first to land a twin engined transport? A Potez 565 transport comes in for a test landing aboard Bearn.

 

[rochie]

Interesting....What could have been done to make SeaLion work?

very interesting !

space jocky

 

[swampyankee]

Leaving aside the treaty limitations that France operated under -- they'd need to start planning these conversions while they were still bound by the carrier tonnage limits -- France had this threatening, aggressive neighbor and an erstwhile ally that seemed to be actively cozying up to that neighbor. The erstwhile ally was not aggressive, and unlikely to ally with the neighbor but was doing less than nothing to curb the neighbor's treaty violations and massive rearmament.

France was, as an aside, limited to 60,000 tons of carriers. Bearn tied up a bit under 37% of that. It would have been interesting had France completed its two Joffre class ships, but they wouldn't be much help when the Germans started rampaging through the countryside. La Royale was probably the most conservative, most anti-British of the French services, so after the fall of France, the carriers would still need to be neutralized to ensure they're not turned over to the Germans, who may demand them as part of reparations.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How about France orders two carriers from British yards? These souls still be on the blocks when France falls.

 

[Kevin J]

I've a better idea. Scrap Bearn because it's a pile of junk, build 3 Joffre class in the late thirties and build the D 790 instead of the D 520. The French Air Force get the cleaned up faster MS 410 instead. Everyone's happy.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I've a better idea. .

I have the best idea. Scrap Bearn and cancel the Dunkerque, Richelieau and Joffre classes. Focus on defending France, not playing with ships. Dramatically decrease naval budget, skip Manigot Line. And build up the army and air force. Army needs a proper tank with three man turret, radio and speed, a proper MBT. Skip the idea of light, medium and heavy tanks, just make an excellent medium tank, an equal to the Panzer IV, and make lots of them. Then focus on doctrine, radio-coordination and wargaming. On the air force, focus on one good fighter, one good close air support (CAS) bomber and one good medium bomber. Stop making so many competing aircraft of the same type. This is France, with limited manpower and industrial power over Germany, so you need to work focused and smarter.

 

[fubar57]

Unfortunately.....that wasn't France

 

[Kevin J]

Unfortunately.....that wasn't France

The other problem was that they were run by a bunch of fucking socialists.

 

[Snautzer01]

The other problem was that they were run by a bunch of ****** socialists.

At that time and place France was not run at all. Election over election. Neither the right or left could keep council.

 

[swampyankee]

The other problem was that they were run by a bunch of fucking socialists.

One conservative once said "better Hitler than Blum." There was no corresponding bon mot from the left. Anti-semitism and conservatism were very closely linked in France, and Blum was Jewish
If one looks at the last few years of the Third Republic, neither the left nor right looks that great, but also recall that much of the Western Front was in France's industrial heartlands and bombardment (by everyone) and looting and destruction (by the occupying Germans) caused a lot of damage, and there was no post-WWI Marshall Plan.

The last government of France was led by Albert Lebrun. (Albert Lebrun - Wikipedia), who governed from 1932 to 1940. He was from a center-right party

 

[vikingBerserker]

It would not have stopped France from falling, but might have been of some use in their war against Siam and later Japan (if they were integrated in the US/GB Navies) or in an ASW role in the Atlantic with the Allies. If nothing else they could have been used to transport aircraft.

I would be more interesting to me if Germany took them over and used them in the Med against the British.