Vichy France has 5 aircraft carriers in WW2

nuuumannn · Oct 30, 2019

Shortround6 said:
If you want to consider prototypes as programs then the British could add the Gloster F5/34, the Bristol 146 and the Martin Baker MB 2. Any others?

As a matter of pedantry, these were all built to the one specification: F.5/34 was a fighter spec to which the Gloster, the Bristol 146 and the MB.2 were all built. No production model was chosen. Six firms were sent tenders, to which three prototypes were built.

Barrett · Oct 31, 2019

Interesting thing about Richelieu deploying with the allies--where did her ammo come from? Am assuming that her main battery 15 inchers were incompatible with anything in the US-RN inventory.

Sidebar: I noted in On Wave & Wing that France has built-deployed more CVs than everybody except US, RN, IJN. One of my Tailhook pals was an LSO sent to a French exchange tour and he became (I'm sure) the only two-war Hellcat pilot counting some deniable ops off Indochina. Toby objected at first because he didn't habla le Francaise but his mentor said "Not to worry--everybody wants to practice his English on you!"

GreenKnight121 · Oct 31, 2019

Barrett said:
Interesting thing about Richelieu deploying with the allies--where did her ammo come from? Am assuming that her main battery 15 inchers were incompatible with anything in the US-RN inventory.

France 380 mm/45 (14.96") Model 1935 and Model 1936 - NavWeaps

During Richelieu's refit in the USA in 1943, her three ruined guns were replaced by guns removed from Jean Bart's Turret I. Sometime after this refit, new APC projectiles designed to meet French specifications were specially built for her by the Crucible Steel Company of America.
.....
Apparently, only APC rounds were developed prior to 1940 and these were boat tailed, so much so that they could not be stored standing on their bases. HE shells were not produced for these guns until late in the war and these were made by Britain. French HE shells were first produced in 1949. Post-war, both ships carried both APC and HE rounds.

GreenKnight121 · Oct 31, 2019

Here is a neat photo... Bearn, Arromanches (ex-HMS Colossus), & Foch in Toulon harbor 1966:

And one of Arromanches in Toulon with Clemenceau and LaFayette (ex-USS Langley) between Nov 1961 & March 1963. The US loaned Langley CVL-27* and Belleau Wood CVL-24** (served as Bois Belleau) to France.

* refurbished and transferred to France under the Mutual Defense Assistance Program on 8 January 1951. After more than a decade of French Navy service as La Fayette, she was returned to the United States on 20 March 1963.

** transferred to the French Navy under the Mutual Defense Assistance Act on 5 September 1953. Bois Belleau was returned to the United States in September 1960.

Then there was the little one... Dixmude.

Biter was an Avenger-class escort carrier. These carriers were converted American type C3 merchant ships. Their design was based on the U.S. Navy′s Long Island class (AVG); the Royal Navy added the prefix "B" (BAVG). HMS Biter (BAVG3) was built by the Sun Shipbuilding and Drydock Company, originally named the Rio-Parana; she was laid down on 28 December 1939, launched on 18 December 1940 and delivered on 4 September 1941. She was converted to an escort carrier in the Atlantic Basin Iron Works at Brooklyn New York and commissioned into the Royal Navy on 6 May 1942.

Biter was returned to the US Navy on 9 April 1945. She underwent a refit and was lent to the French Navy, where she was renamed Dixmude. The Flotille 3FB equipped with Douglas Dauntless dive bombers served on the ship between 1945 and 1949. On 24 January 1951 she was removed from the US Navy register and disarmed during her next refit between 1951–1953. She then became an accommodation ship until 1965, when she was returned to the US Navy, who sank her as a target ship on 10 June 1966.

Denniss · Nov 2, 2019

Not only was France limited to just 60k (long) tons of aircraft carriers, they were only permitted to use two existing hulls for carrier conversions. This actually rules out much of the hypothetical question.
It's highly unlikely they could convert the additional three hulls as light carrier below 10k tons without major hull reconstruction.

Admiral Beez · Jan 5, 2020

Kevin J said:
I've a better idea. Scrap Bearn because it's a pile of junk, build 3 Joffre class in the late thirties and build the D 790

I like the look of the Arsenal VG-33 for naval fighter over the Dewoitine. Better view forward for starters.

fubar57 · Jan 5, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
I like the look of the Arsenal VG-33 for naval fighter over the Dewoitine. Better view forward for starters.

Under powered and under armed

Kevin J · Jan 5, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
I like the look of the Arsenal VG-33 for naval fighter over the Dewoitine. Better view forward for starters.

They're best bet was those 81 Wildcats they ordered.

Shortround6 · Jan 5, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
I like the look of the Arsenal VG-33 for naval fighter over the Dewoitine. Better view forward for starters.

You do realize the VG-33 only had a 150sq ft wing and had a wing loading of around 39lb per Sq ft?
Sure you could put a bigger wing on it but then a lot of the performance goes away.

I think the VG 33 is overrated because of it's speed. I don't believe it ever saw combat.

Admiral Beez · Jan 5, 2020

Shortround6 said:
You do realize the VG-33 only had a 150sq ft wing and had a wing loading of around 39lb per Sq ft?

Yes.

Kevin J · Jan 5, 2020

Shortround6 said:
You do realize the VG-33 only had a 150sq ft wing and had a wing loading of around 39lb per Sq ft?
Sure you could put a bigger wing on it but then a lot of the performance goes away.

I think the VG 33 is overrated because of it's speed. I don't believe it ever saw combat.

Arsenal VG-33 - Wikipedia

Shortround6 · Jan 5, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
Yes.

Then you should realize that the plane would have made an appallingly bad carrier fighter in 1940-41 in the context of this thread,
Trying to fly it from short-slow flight decks with a high stalling speed (and we have no idea of it's stalling characteristics, the D 520's were bad) is a recipe for a high accident rate.

Shortround6 · Jan 5, 2020

Kevin J said:
Arsenal VG-33 - Wikipedia

I know how to use wikipedia thank you.

I also have several books that go ver much of what was said.

I would also note that Wikipedia is wrong.

"The Arsenal VG-33 was one of a series of fast French light fighter aircraft under development at the start of World War II"

"Gross weight: 2,655 kg (5,853 lb) "

Spitfire I with armor and bullet proof windscreen and Rotol prop weighed 6050lbs

Either the VG 33 was NOT a light fighter or the Spitfire and Bf 109 were.

fubar57 · Jan 5, 2020

From "French Fighters of World War II" in action: Alain Pelletier, Squadron

Admiral Beez · Jan 5, 2020

Shortround6 said:
Then you should realize that the plane would have made an appallingly bad carrier fighter in 1940-41 in the context of this thread,

Ok.

Vichy France has 5 aircraft carriers in WW2

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