VT-8 TBF at Midway

[The Basket]

A few questions

Waldrons squadron only had 2 crew aboard? Interesting. Cos he had to be radio man and gunner and navigator. Who fired the torpedo? Was it the rear guy or pilot?

The TBF had 2 dead crew so how can there be a surviving radio man?

Didn't George Gay have a ringside seat...although calling out this guy is not good considering he did the do.

 

[MIflyer]

The crewman behind the pilot in the center cockpit was mainly there to operate the bombsight for horizontal bombing as well as serve as a copilot. By the way, the TBF/TBM was mainly used for level bombing rather than torpedo attacks.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It's believed that the failed torpedo that hit the Kaga was from the USS Nautilus, not from a TBD. The hit occurred after the SBD strikes around 14:00 and the floating air cask was seen and recorded at that time.

Your post is welcomed but be advised this thread has been dormant for 3 years.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A few questions

Waldrons squadron only had 2 crew aboard? Interesting. Cos he had to be radio man and gunner and navigator. Who fired the torpedo? Was it the rear guy or pilot?

Navigation and working the radio is not that hard if you didn't have to spend a lot of time tuning the radio. If you knew what you were doing, navigation is easy, even with good ole Dead Reckoning" DR. I believe the pilot had a torpedo release handle in his cockpit.

 

[GrauGeist]

Many naval aircraft of the day had a pilot and a radio operator/navigator/rear gunner - the SBD is an example of this configuration.
The TBF/TBM had a crew of three:
Pilot
Radio operator/navigator/rear gunner
Ventral gunner.

 

[MIflyer]

Navigation and working the radio is not that hard if you didn't have to spend a lot of time tuning the radio

The radios used in the TBD and SBD at that time included both shorter range Command sets and longer range Liasion radios. Both of these used separate receivers and transmitters The Command sets were used for talking within the formation and did not have to be retuned. The Liaison radio was used to communicate back to the carrier. Retuning either of those sets was a job that required a trained person but they usually did not have to do that in flight, the frequencies being set before flight.

The fighters only had one transmit frequency, using the shorter range Command radios; that could not be changed in flight. The receive frequency could be retuned by the pilots in flight but the only reason to do that was to pick up the UHF ZB navigational signals, which meant they could not receive voice communications then.

Later USN aircraft had much more extensive radio equipment, with multiple transmit and receive frequencies available.

At Midway Lt Cmdr Waldron of VT-8 saw no need to risk more than two men and so he left his middle seat crewmen back on the Hornet

 

[FLYBOYJ]

So - at the end of the day, the pilot of an SBD or a TBD can fly and operate the radio (if they didn't have to deal with tuning in frequencies on radios that they may not have access to in their cockpit)

 

[MIflyer]

So - at the end of the day, the pilot of an SBD or a TBD can fly and operate the radio (if they didn't have to deal with tuning in frequencies on radios that they may not have access to in their cockpit)

Yes, the pilot can receive and transmit without having to go through the radio operator. The RO/Gunner in the Hornet Air Group Commander's SBD reported receiving a message from Lt
Commander Waldron that he had found the IJN Fleet and was going in to attack; Ring had to have heard that as well . Commander Ring's lack of response to that message is even more damming than his failure to develop a Plan B if his Plan A did not work out. Of course, no one else seemed to have a Plan B, either, but at least Wade McClusky got lucky then and came up with one in real time.

The Enterprise F4F's followed VT-8 to the IJN Fleet, remained at altitude waiting for a call for help that never came, and the leader only mentioned they were over the IJN Fleet and were heading for home after they hit bingo fuel. Why McClusky apparently never heard that transmission I don't guess we know. But this is a case in which the USN's emphasis on radio silence probably hurt the mission. The F4F's should have been screaming their heads off, yelling "We found them!"

And also the USN carrier air gorups could not talk to each other nor to the USAAF, which seemed to have no problem at all finding the IJN fleet any time they wished to, thanks to the B-17's survivability.

Now, with the F6F at the time of the Marianas Turkey Shoot, the Hellcats had ARC-5 installations, with 5 VHF channels and one HF channel they could switch to at the touch of a button.

 

[MIflyer]

This is a photo of the type of radio receiver used by most if not all of the USN aircraft at the Midway battle, the RU-16. The bulge on the Right side of the receiver is the removable coil pack, which is associated with the frequency range the receiver is set up to tune. The rectangular hole in the upper Left side of the receiver is where the tubes are installed and across the top of it is where the ARR-1 UHF converter for receiving the navigational signals is installed. The device next to the Right side of the receiver is the tuning control used in the cockpit, connected to the receiver by a long "speedometer cable." Note that both the receiver and the tuning control have a 0-100 scale, meaning that in order to tune the set to a particular frequency a chart had to be used for each coil set. The coil set shown installed has two ranges, high and low, to enable the receiver to be switched from the high range used for communications to the low range used for navigation. A photo of the coilset chart is also attached.

The transmitter is of similar size and also uses its own coil sets, but tuning it to another frequency is much more involved and was not possible in fighter aircraft.

 

[davparlr]

Naval radio communications were problematic early in the war. Probably the results of lack of attention/money, lack of procedures, pre war? Don't know if AAF had similar problems.

 

[MIflyer]

The USAAC used the almost same radios, called SCR-283. The Navy radios were more advanced versions of the 283, but both were TRF rather than Superheterodyne receivers and therefore not state of the art.

The USAAF apparently had the SCR-283 in the P-400's on Guadalcanal and were not too happy with them. Reportedly they had to be frequently realigned, as in just about every day they flew.

 

[GrauGeist]

On tube-type radio sets (TX/RX) of that era, fine tuning was a constant as just the vibration from the engine (and being mounted ridgid to the airframe) could knock it off frequency.
In this day and age of solid state, it's easy to forget how complicated two-way communications were in earlier years.
If you ever had to fiddle with a TV set's vernier to get a better picture, then you know...

 

[Snautzer01]

On tube-type radio sets (TX/RX) of that era, fine tuning was a constant as just the vibration from the engine (and being mounted ridgid to the airframe) could knock it off frequency.
In this day and age of solid state, it's easy to forget how complicated two-way communications were in earlier years.
If you ever had to fiddle with a TV set's vernier to get a better picture, then you know...

And to adjust the tv set you would have needed a heavy fist. One hit for the correct station the 2 nd for the fine tuning.

 

[MIflyer]

On tube-type radio sets (TX/RX) of that era, fine tuning was a constan

I recall when I was looking for a good amateur radio receiver back in 1974, in one magazine they described a test on a 1960 vintage tube type receiver. They tuned in a signal, lifted up the front of the receiver an inch or two, then let go and allowed it to slam back down. The set did not go off frequency as a result; the front panel was 1/8 inch steel. I bought one of those. In fact eventually I bought four of them. And that radio was not even designed for mobile mounting.

My HS physics professor was a USNA trained EE and WWII vet. He described a qualification test used on the USN TCS receiver, an HF radio used in all kinds of seaborne and mobile mountings. They would test the set and confirm it was working okay. Then they hung it with a rope from a high ceiling, pulled it back and let it swing into a steel wall. Then they took it down and tested it again; if it was off frequency by more than 1 KHZ it was rejected. Seems that naval gunfire tends to rattle the hell out of everything, even on the ship that is firing and not being hit.

I was also told that off Okinawa a USN carrier took a Kamikaze hit that wiped out the communications center. On the flight deck was an F6F that had the wing ripped off. But the ARC-5 radios in that airplane still worked and for some days thereafter those airplane radios were the only comm they had for the ship.

 

[GrauGeist]

I was also told that off Okinawa a USN carrier took a Kamikaze hit that wiped out the communications center. On the flight deck was an F6F that had the wing ripped off. But the ARC-5 radios in that airplane still worked and for some days thereafter those airplane radios were the only comm they had for the ship.

I beleive that may have been USS Manila Bay (CVE-61).

 

[davparlr]

Seems that naval gunfire tends to rattle the hell out of everything, even on the ship that is firing and not being hit.

A friend of mine was on the recommissioning team for the New Jersey in Long Beach. He related to me that firing the big 16 inch guns were handled very well by the ship, mainly because they were mounted deep into the ships hull. The 5 inch guns were apparently mounted on the decks and rattled everything during firing.

 

[MIflyer]

I beleive that may have been USS Manila Bay (CVE-61).

Possibly. I have a book on escort carriers, "The Little Giants" that may cover that. If it was a CVE then the aircraft likely would have been an FM-2 rather than an F6F.

 

[pararaftanr2]

Does anyone know if this photo of a damaged TBF shows the sole surviving aircraft from VT-8 at Midway?

I don't know where I found that photo.

Yes, that is the "sole surviving" TBF from VT-8's Midway contingent. The plane's pilot was Ensign Albert K. Earnest. Crew were ARM3c Harrier H. Ferrier and S1c Jay D. Manning. Manning was killed in his turret, fighting off Zero fighters on their way back to Midway. The plane was heavily damaged and the landing gear did not fully deploy, as seen in the first photo below. Your photo, and the one below with the gear fully extended, were taken June 24, 1942, as the plane was being prepared for shipment back to the US.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The Navy radios were more advanced versions of the 283, but both were TRF rather than Superheterodyne receivers

I took an Intro to Electronics course in high school in the early 60s, and the pinnacle of electronics presented to us was the classic five tube superhet AM riadio. Portables of the era were big heavy "bricks" with TRF circuitry and two or three (different) batteries. The first clunky, tinny sounding, "pocket" (Haha) transistor radios were just starting to show up, but when we asked Mr Good how they worked, he shrugged and said: "Dunno, F_ _kin' Magic, I guess". He had a hard time wrapping his head around semiconductor theory and "hole flow".

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I use tube amps for my electric-guitarin'. Amp failures are usually around 90% tube failures. Russian tubes are prized for their robustness, followed closely by Cold War-era Raytheon and Sylvanias. Even so, we have to be careful loading in or out of a gig. One clumsy move can loosen tube internals, or crack a base. If it's a power-amplification tube, failure will take down the output transformer render your amp hors de combat.

I can only imagine the shock-mounts required to make radios work on combat aircraft or BBs hammering away at a target, much less taking incoming.