War over the Wine Dark sea

Kevin J · Aug 6, 2019

You've omitted the Blackburn Roc and Supermarine Spitfire floatplanes, the Short Seaford and Shetland flying boats. The Saunders Roe SR.A/1which didn't fly until after the war. Fairey Sea Fox. Supermarine Walrus and Sea Otter. The Handley Page Hampden, originally used as maritime recce bomber, then minelayer then torpedo bomber. Bristol Bolingbroke, coastal patrol. Avro Anson, coastal patrol. Bristol Blenheim IV, coastal recce bomber. Lockheed Hudson and derivatives, maritime patrol. Consolidated Privateer aka Liberator. So the Brits designed and operated many twins in the early part of WW2 in an overwater role, so somewhere between 10 - 20 thousand. Also the Whitley, the Wellington, the Warwick and the Flying Fortress used by Brits in Maritime role. Soviets used Douglas Boston as torpedo bomber, being rated by them as their best.

Kevin J · Aug 6, 2019

The Germans reckoned the He 111 was their best torpedo bomber, again omitted.

Schweik · Aug 6, 2019

Kevin J said:
You've omitted the Blackburn Roc and Supermarine Spitfire floatplanes, the Short Seaford and Shetland flying boats. The Saunders Roe SR.A/1which didn't fly until after the war. Fairey Sea Fox. Supermarine Walrus and Sea Otter. The Handley Page Hampden, originally used as maritime recce bomber, then minelayer then torpedo bomber. Bristol Bolingbroke, coastal patrol. Avro Anson, coastal patrol. Bristol Blenheim IV, coastal recce bomber. Lockheed Hudson and derivatives, maritime patrol. Consolidated Privateer aka Liberator. So the Brits designed and operated many twins in the early part of WW2 in an overwater role, so somewhere between 10 - 20 thousand. Also the Whitley, the Wellington, the Warwick and the Flying Fortress used by Brits in Maritime role. Soviets used Douglas Boston as torpedo bomber, being rated by them as their best.

I was not able to include every single variant, especially lesser types, because the poll only allowed 25 options.

I already explained why I didn't include the Walrus (and nearly identical Sea Otter) - it was in another category (which you might call small flying boats) used mainly just for rescue, not so much for fighitng.

The Spitfire floatplane for example was just 5 prototypes and never saw combat.

Same for the Roc floatplane "As well as its primary role as a carrier-based fighter, the Roc was also required to be capable of operating as a floatplane, with a conversion kit being designed for a set of floats from a Blackburn Shark to be fitted but the first such conversion proved unstable and in December 1939 it crashed when being tested at Helensburgh Marine Aircraft Experimental Establishment where it had been moved at the start of the war. While the addition of an enlarged ventral fin solved the stability problems, the effect of the floats on the aircraft's performance was too great to be ignored, with maximum speed falling to only 193 mph (168 kn; 311 km/h) and plans to form a fighter squadron equipped with Roc floatplanes were abandoned "

Short Seaford (10 built) was basically just a variant of the Sunderland (albeit quite an impressive improvement), but as it appeared in April 1945 it never saw combat. Shetland, also impressive, was an end of the war prototype (2 built, no combat).

So how far should the threshold for this be pushed down?

Feel free to discuss these types if you want.

Hampden and the He 111 are worth mentioning.

Schweik · Aug 6, 2019

Image of the Shetland prototype, quite an impressive beast...

Kevin J · Aug 6, 2019

Schweik said:
I was not able to include every single variant, especially lesser types, because the poll only allowed 25 options.

I already explained why I didn't include the Walrus (and nearly identical Sea Otter) - it was in another category (which you might call small flying boats) used mainly just for rescue, not so much for fighitng.

The Spitfire floatplane for example was just 5 prototypes and never saw combat.

Same for the Roc floatplane "As well as its primary role as a carrier-based fighter, the Roc was also required to be capable of operating as a floatplane, with a conversion kit being designed for a set of floats from a Blackburn Shark to be fitted but the first such conversion proved unstable and in December 1939 it crashed when being tested at Helensburgh Marine Aircraft Experimental Establishment where it had been moved at the start of the war. While the addition of an enlarged ventral fin solved the stability problems, the effect of the floats on the aircraft's performance was too great to be ignored, with maximum speed falling to only 193 mph (168 kn; 311 km/h) and plans to form a fighter squadron equipped with Roc floatplanes were abandoned "

Short Seaford (10 built) was basically just a variant of the Sunderland (albeit quite an impressive improvement), but as it appeared in April 1945 it never saw combat. Shetland, also impressive, was an end of the war prototype (2 built, no combat).

So how far should the threshold for this be pushed down?

Feel free to discuss these types if you want.

Hampden and the He 111 are worth mentioning.

Good respond so won't argue. I mentioned all the British twins as 20000 is a lot to produce that no one noticed.

Schweik · Aug 6, 2019

Kevin J said:
Good respond so won't argue. I mentioned all the British twins as 20000 is a lot to produce that no one noticed.

One question I have, given the quantum leap of the performance, range and armament of the Seaford over the Sunderland as I reported it, and given that the Sunderland had a very long career from 1938 - 1945 with many different marks produced, was the Seaford really such a quantum leap improvement or were some of the later mark (IV or V) Sunderlands similar in capability?

From wikipedia

Name / First in service / number produced / top speed/ cruise speed / range / comb load / guns / passengers

Sunderland III / 1938 / 749 / 210 mph / 178 mph / 1,780 miles / 2,000 lbs / 16 x 7.7mm machine guns in 2 turrets, 2 x 12.7mm / 24 - 82
Seaford / 1945 / 10 / 242 mph / 155 mph / 3,100 miles / 4,960 lbs / 6 x 12.7mm, 2 x 20mm with three turrets, 2 x 7.7mm fixed / ?
Shetland / 1945 / 2 / 263 mph / 183 mph / 4,000 miles / 4,000 lbs / 6 x 12.7mm with three turrets and two beam positions / 70

EDIT apparently the Seaford is the Sunderland Mk IV... the Mk V had 1,200 Pratt & Whitney R-1830 engines so presumably had better performance than the Mk III with 1,000 hp engines.

michael rauls · Aug 6, 2019

What...... no SBD( the greatest plane of all time) on a list that includes scout planes?

Schweik · Aug 6, 2019

Those are seaplane scouts. This is for seaplanes, flying boats and float planes for the most part, with an extra category for long range maritime patrol, ASW and torpedo planes.

The criteria is basically for the second tier military aircraft, or those with the range to fight further out on the fringes of the battlefield beyond the main show so to speak. I didn't include any carrier planes.

However the Northrop N-3PB seaplane which is on the list is, I believe, in the lineage of (as part of the Northrop A-17 / Northrop BT series) the SBD Dauntless so maybe that counts?

Schweik · Aug 6, 2019

nuuumannn said:
"Over the Wine Dark Sea"? And I thought this was about aviation over the Dardanelles - that was the name of an article written about the subject in Over the Front magazine, I think.

The poetic phrase "wine dark sea" is a bit of an affectation. It originally (or at least as far as we know) comes from Homer. Many find it confusing, there is even a bizarre theory that ancient Greeks didn't see color the same way we do today. But I remember it suddenly coming to me once on a ferry ride from Hamburg to Amsterdam- which I had booked as a train ride but that is another story. Looking over the side at the deep, deep blue of the water such as you only see very far from shore, that phrase came into my head and I felt like I understood it's meaning. It is that same deep rich shade as a glass of wine. Not quite as dark as ink or motor oil but much darker than say, beer. I have loved it ever since and always think of it now whenever I am far out to sea and the water turns that deep blue color.

It's pretty hard to choose from that list as the types and their roles vary so much. How can you choose between a Curtiss SC Sea Hawk and an Fw 200 as to which is the best? And where is the Supermarine Walrus?

You can vote up to 6 times for different choices, the idea being one vote per category. So the Curtiss SC is in the "seaplane fighter" category while the Fw 200 is in the long range maritime patrol category. The Walrus wasn't included because I could only put in 25 choices and I decided to exclude a whole category of seaplanes that were mostly only used as air-sea rescue planes and didn't engage in much combat, along with some other important ones like the OS2U "kingfisher", the He 59, the SOC "Seagull", the Italian IMAM Ro. 43, and the dismal failure known as the SOC3C Seamew.

nuuumannn · Aug 6, 2019

Schweik said:
I was not able to include every single variant, especially lesser types, because the poll only allowed 25 options.

Based on the critiques here and the limited criteria, perhaps you might rethink your categories next time. Perhaps separate ones based on roles and types might be more appropriate?

Schweik · Aug 6, 2019

nuuumannn said:
Based on the critiques here and the limited criteria, perhaps you might rethink your categories next time. Perhaps separate ones based on roles and types might be more appropriate?

If the forum software was more sophisticated I would have made a better poll with more options.

However these were the aircraft I was interested in. So far as I know all of the aircraft types I listed in the poll participated in either bombing, depth charging of surface or submarine targets, or in air to air combat as part of their life as a seaplane or flying boat, or maritime patrol aircraft.

I could have tinkered with it around the margins, but I probably still would not have included the Walrus, because I'm interested in the struggle between men and machines here, not as much (at least for this particular thread anyway) with the rescue of downed pilots. Though that is an interesting issue in it's own right of course.

taly01 · Aug 9, 2019

Comparing seaplanes, flying boats and long range patrol aircraft is impossible. Like a catapult launched scout plane vs long range bomber?

Sorry to be another PITA but I would include the Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" as an extremely important multi-role open water plane.

Schweik · Aug 9, 2019

You are a bit missing the point - the poll has 6 options, one for each category. You can vote 6 times. Pick the best seaplane, the best flying boat, the best long range patrol aircraft and so on. You can also do 'write-ins' so if the G4M is your choice for patrol aircraft over Fw 200 and PB4Y then one vote for the G4M.

glennasher · Aug 9, 2019

I have an uncle who flew off a battleship or a cruiser during the war (he's well into his 90s now). He had never opened up to me about that part of his life, and didn't elaborate on what kind of ship or aircraft in which he flew, only that he was about to get out of the Navy when the war started, and he had to stay in for the duration of the war. I presume he was in a Kingfisher, but didn't ask, as he was pretty reticent about it all.

Schweik · Aug 9, 2019

It's hard for veterans, particularly combat veterans to talk to people who aren't, partly because it may bring up unpleasant memories, but also I think because military life in general and combat experience specifically is so different from civilian expectations and portrayals in popular culture that it often gets a lot of push back when you discuss it.

I was never in combat when I was in the military but I have had some experiences in that ball park (mostly in other parts of my life) and I don't bring them up because of that exact reason. If you mention something that is pretty meaningful or even painful to you, and the person you are talking to reacts with incredulity or incomprehension, it makes you feel like crap, it can seriously impact your relationship with that person too. I think this was particularly true with previous generations before grittier portrayals of war were more common in the pop culture, ala the first twenty minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" or some of the Vietnam movies. But even those depictions aren't always relatable for veterans. There is a lot of weirdness to military life that is kind of shocking to civilians that doesn't even involve combat.

It doesn't take too many of those kind of reactions before you learn to keep it to yourself, or only talk about it with others who have been through the same thing. Hence the need for VFW, American Legion etc.

I've noticed though that some older pilots, aircrew and other veterans I've met at Air Shows seem willing to discuss some of their experiences with aviation enthusiasts when the latter are respectful and willing to listen, maybe that's why they go to the Air Show. Think how much you have learned about aviation and air combat in conversations here, it's a fairly steep learning curve even to get your head around the basics. We don't that often delve into the deeply personal side of air warfare either.

Schweik · Aug 9, 2019

It's too bad your uncle didn't want to talk about it though, I bet he has some interesting stories to tell flying scout planes from a warship for the duration.

My Grandfather was in the French resistance in WW2 but I never heard about his exploits from him or anyone else from that side of the family. I eventually found some stories about him in a book by a journalist named Howard K. Smith, who met him toward the end of the war.

Vic Nighthorse · Aug 9, 2019

I'd like to vote for the Do-26. Beautiful and long legs.

Schweik · Aug 9, 2019

Vic Nighthorse said:
I'd like to vote for the Do-26. Beautiful and long legs.

Wow you are right, very elegant lines, extremely sophisticated design too for the 1930's especially. Incredible range too, over 5,600 miles, that makes it the longest ranged flying boat on the list. I had never heard of it.

They only made 6, but it saw action so it is admissible. Thanks for turning me on to this one.

Dornier Do 26 - Wikipedia

This really sounds like it ought to be part of a movie:

"On 8 May 1940, V2 (ex Seefalke)[3] was shot down by three Blackburn Skuas of 803 Naval Air Squadron, Fleet Air Arm, operating from the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal[4] while carrying 18 Gebirgsjägers to the Narvik front.[3] After a running fight V2 crash-landed in Efjorden in Ballangen. Siegfried Graf Schack von Wittenau, the crew and 18 soldiers, were captured in bloody fighting with Norwegian forces.[3] One of the Skuas, flown by future Fleet Air Arm fighter ace Sub-Lieutenant Philip Noel Charlton,[5] was hit by return fire from V2 and made an emergency landing at Tovik near Harstad.[3] "

Shot down by Skuas (one of which flown by a future Ace is itself shot down), carrying alpine commandos, firefight with Norwegian troops ending in their capture.... wow.

This is a good example of what I mean when I say history makes for a better story than most Hollywood scripts or novels...

Vic Nighthorse · Aug 9, 2019

Yeah, it's a great story. I don't think I could have "pulled the trigger" on such a beautiful plane myself - then again I don't have any of the other "right stuff" either I have long been enamored with the Jumo-205s that powered it as well.

Schweik · Aug 9, 2019

I guess the diesel engine had something to do with the extraordiary range? Or was it just the twinned engines?

War over the Wine Dark sea

What were the best seaplanes, flying boats, maritime patrol and scout aircraft of WW2

Aichi E-13A (Scout Seaplane)

Arado Ar-196 (Scout Seaplane)

Vought OS2U (Scout Seaplane)

Curtiss SOC (Scout Seaplane)

OS2U Kingfisher (Scout Seaplane)

Heinkel He 115 (Seaplane bomber)

CANT Z.506 (Seaplane bomber)

Mitsubishi F1M (Seaplane fighter)

Nakajima A6M2-N (Seaplane fighter)

Kawanishi N1K (Seaplane fighter)

N-3PB (Seaplane fighter)

Curtiss SC Seahawk (Seaplane fighter)

FW 200 (long range maritime patrol fighter)

PB4Y-2 (long range maritime patrol fighter)

SM 79 (long range torpedo carrier)

Bristol Beaufort (long range torpedo carrier)

Bristol Beaufighter (long range torpedo carrier / fighter)

Ju 88 (long range torpedo carrier / dive bomber / fighter)

PBY Catalina (Flying Boat)

PB2Y Coronado (Flying Boat

Short Sunderland (Flying Boat)

Blohm and Voss BV 238 (Flying Boat)

Blohm and Voss BV 222 (Flying Boat)

Kawanishi H6K "Mavis" (Flying Boat)

Kawanishi H8K "Emily" (Flying Boat)

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Tech Sergeant

Banned

Banned

Major

Banned

Senior Airman

Banned

Senior Airman

Banned

Banned

Airman

Banned

Airman

Banned

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