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Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
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- Mar 18, 2022
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Perhaps you can give an example where accepted AA kill claims were running at 6 or 7 to 1 vs actual AA kills?
The F4F-4 air to air kill claims are not really out of line with other AF or actual kills, but the SBD kill claims should be raising some eyebrows. However it's the combined totals of the AA kill claims and aerial kill claims that is really out of whack.
This is Lundstrom's summation of just the first IJN strike:
and the 2nd strike:
so that's 21 of the 29 aircraft stated in the table.
At the risk of repeating myself:I don't think anyone was calling for Hurricanes or Sea Hurricanes anywhere in the Pacific
You stated: "Many of the IJN planes that ditched actually didn't make it to anywhere near their carriers."So what? It looks like the Japanese took a lot of losses to me. What is your point?
Heck, they couldn't even get P-40Fs (mostly) Although The navy wanted to try some.
P-40F 41-13701 was transferred to Anacostia Naval AIr station on June 6th 1942 for comparative trials with the F4F-4.
CinCPAC on June 21st 1942 wanted P-40s for all high importance outlying bases for Marine squadrons if the P-40 could be modified for with carrier operations.
This included 49% of B5N crews killed, 39% of D3A crews killed, and 20% of A6M killed.
At the risk of repeating myself:
...Another aspect of
the attack that proved inadequate was fighter escort. To Fletcher the folding wing F4F-4s
represented no improvement over the fixed-wing F4F-3s, except more F4F-4s could be
carried. He echoed the call of Halsey and others of the urgent necessity'' for detachable fuel
tanks to increase their effective attack radius beyond 175 miles. Spruance and Browning
rated the Grumman Wildcat "greatly inferior'' in comparison with the nimble Japanese
Zero. On 20 June Nimitz relayed their fears to King, noting the "extreme and apparently
increased superiority performance of 0 fighters'' was mitigated only by the vulnerability
of Japanese planes and the superior tactics of the U.S. Navy fighter pilots. "Overall results
have been bad and will be serious and potentially decisive with improvement that must
be expected in enemy tactics.'' Remarkably he called for army Curtiss P-4OF Warhawk
fighters to replace navy F4F Wildcats and Brewster F2A Buffaloes in all marine fighting
squadrons defending forward bases and even asked that the P-4OF "or comparable type"
be tested for carrier suitability; In the meantime the F4F-4s must be lightened, and their
ammunition supply increased even should that require reverting to four guns in place ofsix.
The swift introduction ofthe Vought F4U-1 Corsair fighter was an"absolute priority.'' Thus
after Midway the top fleet commanders experienced a serious crisis of confidence over the
effectiveness of the basic U.S. carrier fighter, a worry that would soon influence Fletcher's
most controversial command decision...
Lundstrom, Black Shoe carrier Admiral, p.200
what "comparable type" aircraft were available in mid 1942, that would be suitable for carrier operation? The SH1B had already proven itself by this time and Hawker was just finishing work on the SH2A/B/C with the same engine as the P40F...
What SR6 said.I explained one of the consequences in my post. Another consequence is that USN AA capability was greatly overrated. The number of SBD kill claims is also of note and there's a thread here currently discussing SBD kill claims.
If the RN ship's AA and FAA aircraft were overclaiming at the same rate as the USN, then the Allies might have concluded that the Luftwaffe had been blown from the sky over PEDESTAL.
Reading these battle reports it's little wonder the Japanese lost, all you hear about is how good the IJN aircraft were with their extreme range and fantastic maneuverability but when you loose this percentage of your forces on one strike your on a road to nowhere.
The P-40Fs started to show up in Dec of 1942 and first reached Guadalcanal in Jan 1943.The Marines would get F4Us starting in Feb 1943 and the Army already had P-40s (including P-40Fs) and P-38s in Theater,
Not sure when they showed up but in the evaluation test in June of 1942 the Navy admired the 52 gallon tank on the P-40F. The 50 (?) gallon tanks for the F4F-4 were under test, but not operational at this time. You can find photos of Wildcats with drop tanks but they are not as common as you might think. And be careful of what you are looking at. Some of the ones on Guadalcanal carried one tank, there is a photo of one F4F with a belly tank followed by one wing one wing tank. P-38 in the same photo for timing.Fortunately for the USN, they did in fact work out external fuel tanks for the F4F, adding an extra 116 gallons of fuel.
The 50 gal was from a book on Curtiss fighters so certainly not definitive. But we are back to timing again. And perhaps field performance.The standard external tank for the F4F was the 58 gallon tank, carried either in pairs or just one at a time. These were tested in mid 1942 and were in use by the time of these October battles at Guadalcanal. There was also a smaller 42 gallon tank carried beneath the center.
I think there was interest in an 'interceptor' especially around the time when the Kamikazes started up, that's when they started putting F4Us on the carriers and I think Seafires were considered good for this too.
Fletcher was withdrawn as part of a general change of command because he and Ghormley and some others weren't perceived as sufficiently willing to risk destruction of the USN fleet especially in surface actions and had left the marines in a lurch at Guadalcanal.
You stated: "Many of the IJN planes that ditched actually didn't make it to anywhere near their carriers."
I replied with quotes from Lundstrom in reply to your statement, above.
"This is Lundstrom's summation of just the first IJN strike:
and the 2nd strike:
so that's 21 of the 29 aircraft stated in the table." (with the actual quotes deleted)
King certainly had a distaste for Fletcher's caution about his carriers which played into Fletcher's removal. But King hadn't lost two carriers in combat while delivering strategic victories, either, as Fletcher had at CS and Midway.
I think Ghormley's removal was unrelated. By Oct 1942 the admiral was worn out. Nimitz took note of that on his visit that month, that Ghormley looked haggard, and that played into his decision to install Halsey. We all know that physical tiredness/ailments play upon mental acuity. Halsey himself had been replaced a few months before for health reasons, right before Midway.
Put shortly, I think relieving Ghormley was fair, while removing Fletcher was arguably unfair -- and worse, unwise. Fletcher (for being black-shoe) gained a solid grasp of carrier tactics, and was at grips with the enemy, which wasn't the case for King or Ghormley. He also knew he was far out on a branch that could be sawn off behind him, so looking to his logistics was not a bad move. Remember, he'd already done a tour in the SoPac when he had to really work to refuel his ships.
Fletcher risked a lot, including his own career and reputation. I'm not sure he's gotten a fair drag, and I write that as someone who has in the past slagged his taste for refueling at inopportune moments.
Imperfect admiral, to be sure, but in a different class, and fired for different reasons, than Ghormley.
IIRC, CinCPAC requested examining the proposition of a navalized P-40 in 1942. Few in the USN were happy with the F4F.
The 50 gal was from a book on Curtiss fighters so certainly not definitive. But we are back to timing again. And perhaps field performance.
View attachment 708520
That center drop tank is a bit scary looking.