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Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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I've been trying to be polite, and to be as clear as I can about what my position is, while trying to understand yours. But I'm pretty sick of all the little barbs and baseless aspersions against my character etc. I can chalk it up to the usual childish reasons, because it's pretty transparent, but it's also pretty f***n tiresome. Meanwhile you can feel free to believe whatever the hell you want. You don't like me, well the feeling is mutual.
And everyone else can read their own history books and decide if idiot or delusional senior military officers are really all that rare at any point in history, and in any nation's armed forces.
I've been trying to be polite, and to be as clear as I can about what my position is, while trying to understand yours. But I'm pretty sick of all the little barbs and baseless aspersions against my character etc. I can chalk it up to the usual childish reasons, because it's pretty transparent, but it's also pretty f***n tiresome. Meanwhile you can feel free to believe whatever the hell you want. You don't like me, well the feeling is mutual.
And everyone else can read their own history books and decide if idiot or delusional senior military officers are really all that rare at any point in history, and in any nation's armed forces.
All I will say is the best threads we have ever had on this forum, well since I've been on here have been between members who have very different understanding or opinions on the thread subject. As each side tries to outdo the other, more facts come to the fore as members dig deeper into research trying to push their argument to the front and the information posted becomes eye opening and educational, the best example was and always will be the P39 thread, that single thread is most likely one of the most factual informed pieces of writing full of peer reviewed information on any online forum, all because one member stubbornly believe the P39 wasn't a piece of crap, absolutely brilliant thread.And your comment about my "point of view" wasn't a barb or a baseless aspersion? I agree, entirely tiresome and childish. I actually have no antipathy to you. You clearly want to be selective in your "evidence" for your assertions. So be it.
Jeez Ewen, lighten up. That too is from Shores, mentioned several times, and discussed previously by others in the same threads you have been participating in.
As just one example, super RAF and Hurricane patriot RCAFson posted the following excerpt here, from Shores. This was from May 1943. I will quote the relevant passage (bold by me):
"There is no doubt that the Hurricane is not up to the job." His original text added: "… and we must have Spitfires." While accepting the report, before it was circulated Williams deleted these latter words, explaining: "That's true, and both you and I know it, but we must never let the boys suspect it – it would destroy morale." He did not seem to credit the pilots with the wit to have worked this out for themselves. Richey however, later learned that the AOC-in-C, India, Sir Richard Peirse, had refused Spitfires on the grounds that the Hurricane was better for the job – apparently because its stronger and wider undercarriage was better for jungle strips. Richey suspected that the advice for this view could well have come from Williams originally. "
The rest of this same passage, which gets into the dog-fighting vs hit and run tactics, makes it abundantly clear that the Hurricane pilots unit leaders did know about proper strategy, eg: "We won't dog-fight. We will only attack from above, diving and firing a short burst before climbing again. If we are caught out and are below the Japs or at their level we will immediately take steps to reverse this situation by diving away and climbing up again before attacking. We will defeat the Japs by cleverness."
I don't think you can say there is a marked improvement of outcomes in Hurricane vs Ki-43 (or other IJN fighters) encounters from that point onward though. In fact I'll dig up some examples and post them later.
The RAF as an institution had learned the benefit of boom-and-zoom and altitude advantage by the end of the BoB. There is no question of this as it is mentioned in tactical memoranda and pilot accounts of the period. The RAAF also mention it in their memoranda and pilot accounts.
The problem with using boom-and-zoom and the advantages conferred by altitude is that you have to get into a position to do so. When you are the attacker you can usually have the altitude advantage. When you are the defender you often will not have time to gain enough altitude.
This basic truism was demonstrated in the BoB (where the Germans usually had the initial altitude advantage) and in the Commonwealth air forces defensive actions of the PTO/CBI (where the incoming Japanese fighter escorts usually had the altitude advantage).
And even being on the offensive did not always guarantee the initial altitude advantage, particularly if you were escorting attack aircraft since you had to keep them in sight and not be flying so far away (horizontally or vertically) that you had no chance of spotting/intercepting the enemy fighters in time.
Apparently, for the average pilot strength (50 lbs side force on the stick for 3 seconds) the Hurricane could roll at ~30°/sec at 400 mph indicated. It took about 80 lbs side force to reach the maximum Hurricane roll rate of 80-90°/sec at 200-250 mphIAS and 35°/sec at 400 mhIAS. Most pilots had difficulty achieving this side force except in a sudden slam which would cause a 'flick' or 'snap' roll, a maneuver which was not normally allowed due the possible departure from controlled flight and/or over-stressing of the airframe. Despite the prohibition against 'flick' maneuvers mentioned in the pilot's notes, I have run across several pilot accounts of the use of 'flick' rolls at moderate speeds during combat - with no apparent problems - but I have also run across a couple where the aircraft entered a snap roll opposite of the intended turn and subsequent 1 1/2 to 2 turn spin before recovery.
FWIW the Hurricane and Bf109G were considered (by pilots that flew both) to have about the same roll rates at the same stick forces, but the Hurricane's maximum roll rate occurred at about 30 mphIAS less than the Bf109G's.
The data I have say the A6M2 was considered to have a roll rate of less than 10°/sec at speeds over 380 mphIAS with 50 lbs stick force, while the A6M3 and A6M5 could do 15-20°/sec at 400 mphIAS (stick forces unknown but probably about 50 lbs). In some cases the A6M2 ailerons may have been jamming due to warping of the wing structure causing binding of the pivot points or control runs.