Was the De Havilland Mosquito a good fighter?

[cocky pilot]

Is it in a flight manual or in an aircraft specific document? I've worked on programs where design team members came up with tons of calculations but when the aircraft actually flew their calculations turned into toilet paper.


Precision Bombing - you bombed from specified altitude without any deviation from heading with one or more aircraft in the formation carrying a high altitude bomb sight (like a Norden). Any specifics on those raids made my Mosquitoes?

No it was proved as I said in the first flight of the mosquito which was faster than the spitfire in service at the time. The RAF especially Dowding were extremely sceptical of claims that bombers would be faster than fighters he had seen the speed of fighters eclipse bombers many times. The Blenheim when introduced was one of the fastest planes available and within a few years was a sitting duck.


I am talking about precision bombing not concentrated area bombing with 1000 bombers in formation using a norden sight. Precision bombing is hitting an individual building like a gestapo headquarters or a prison wall. Unfortunately it also means precisely bombing a French school when a bomber clips a lamp post hits the school and the SOME of the following planes see the school as the target. Or alternatively precision bombing to put the Berlin radio off air while Mr Goering was giving an address

 

[FLYBOYJ]

No it was proved as I said in the first flight of the mosquito which was faster than the spitfire in service at the time. The RAF especially Dowding were extremely sceptical of claims that bombers would be faster than fighters he had seen the speed of fighters eclipse bombers many times. The Blenheim when introduced was one of the fastest planes available and within a few years was a sitting duck.

Show me an actual document and I'll believe this, till then just hear-say...

I am talking about precision bombing not concentrated area bombing with 1000 bombers in formation using a norden sight. Precision bombing is hitting an individual building like a gestapo headquarters or a prison wall. Unfortunately it also means precisely bombing a French school when a bomber clips a lamp post hits the school and the SOME of the following planes see the school as the target. Or alternatively precision bombing to put the Berlin radio off air while Mr Goering was giving an address

OK - to the USAAF "precision" bombing usually meant "Daylight Precision Bombing."

 

[buffnut453]

Show me an actual document and I'll believe this, till then just hear-say...

This is recorded in Martin Bowman's "de Havilland Mosquito" (Crowood Aviation series) which draws on comparative tests between the Mosquito and the Spit MkII undertaken at Boscombe Down.

 

[cocky pilot]

Show me an actual document and I'll believe this, till then just hear-say...



OK - to the USAAF "precision" bombing usually meant "Daylight Precision Bombing."

Show me an actual document of an allied or german fighter being able to catch a mosquito when it was first introduced. The speed of an airplane is in direct relation to the load it carries and so the debate is interminable. However even if the LW had a speed advantage of 30/40 MPH in their fastest planes that means they could only intercept (possibly) a plane flying over their field because the mosquito is at altitude and the interceptor isnt. By the time the interceptors are at altitude the mosquito is gone and its a long chase with only 30/40 mph advantage. On raids on polands oil fields the mosquitos had to throttle back (ie waste fuel) to keep pace with their slower mustang escorts which couldnt afford to waste fuel.


I will find the link for the mosquitos initial performance


seems buff nut has found it

 

[mhuxt]

Show me an actual document and I'll believe this, till then just hear-say...

Sorry, which part are we talking about? The design part or the flight tests part?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This is recorded in Martin Bowman's "de Havilland Mosquito" (Crowood Aviation series) which draws on comparative tests between the Mosquito and the Spit MkII undertaken at Boscombe Down.

Thanks for the referance

Show me an actual document of an allied or german fighter being able to catch a mosquito when it was first introduced.

Well the first operational mission of the Mosquito was in Sept 20, 1941 and my sources show it was a F. Mk I with a top speed of about 390 mph. P-38s and F4Us were already flying faster although a PR prototype reached 439 mph in July 1941, so its going to depend whether you consider the performance of the prototypes. I might add that the He 100 was faster as well, although never placed in full production.

The speed of an airplane is in direct relation to the load it carries and so the debate is interminable.

Agree...

However even if the LW had a speed advantage of 30/40 MPH in their fastest planes that means they could only intercept (possibly) a plane flying over their field because the mosquito is at altitude and the interceptor isnt. By the time the interceptors are at altitude the mosquito is gone and its a long chase with only 30/40 mph advantage. On raids on polands oil fields the mosquitos had to throttle back (ie waste fuel) to keep pace with their slower mustang escorts which couldnt afford to waste fuel.

Agree as well

I will find the link for the mosquitos initial performance

Thanks

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Sorry, which part are we talking about? The design part or the flight tests part?

see post 40

 

[cocky pilot]

Flyboy as evidence I introduce the mosquito which performed the most missions over enemy territory F for freddie did over 200 missions and as an aside a TV comentator kenneth wolstenholm .

A Mosquito B.IX also holds the record for the most combat missions flown by an Allied bomber in the Second World War. LR503, known as "F for Freddie" because of its squadron code letters, GB*F, first served with 109 and subsequently 105 Squadron of the RAF. It flew 213 sorties during the war,[12] only to crash on 10 May 1945, two days after VE Day at Calgary airport during the 8th Victory Loan Bond Drive, killing both the pilot Flt. Lt. Maurice Briggs, DSO, DFC, DFM and navigator Fl. Off. John Baker, DFC and Bar.


Wolstenholme started his career as a journalist with a newspaper in Manchester, before joining the RAF, and from 1941 onwards flew 100 missions over Germany and won the DFC and bar as a bomber pilot. Based at RAF Massingham in Norfolk, he flew Blenheims with 107 Sqn, before joining Bomber Command's 8 Group Pathfinders flying Mosquitos.


wolstenholme flew 100 missions over Germany and yet is most remembered for saying "they think it's all over, it is now" In the 1966 soccer cup final

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Flyboy as evidence I introduce the mosquito which performed the most missions over enemy territory F for freddie did over 200 missions and as an aside a TV comentator kenneth wolstenholm .

A Mosquito B.IX also holds the record for the most combat missions flown by an Allied bomber in the Second World War. LR503, known as "F for Freddie" because of its squadron code letters, GB*F, first served with 109 and subsequently 105 Squadron of the RAF. It flew 213 sorties during the war,[12] only to crash on 10 May 1945, two days after VE Day at Calgary airport during the 8th Victory Loan Bond Drive, killing both the pilot Flt. Lt. Maurice Briggs, DSO, DFC, DFM and navigator Fl. Off. John Baker, DFC and Bar.


Wolstenholme started his career as a journalist with a newspaper in Manchester, before joining the RAF, and from 1941 onwards flew 100 missions over Germany and won the DFC and bar as a bomber pilot. Based at RAF Massingham in Norfolk, he flew Blenheims with 107 Sqn, before joining Bomber Command's 8 Group Pathfinders flying Mosquitos.


wolstenholme flew 100 missions over Germany and yet is most remembered for saying "they think it's all over, it is now" In the 1966 soccer cup final

All good, but from your original post (post 40)

"it was proposed by its designers that it would be 30MPH faster than a spitfire"

Well if you look at the speed of the FIRST operational Mosquito, that never really happened unless you want to include prototypes into this discussion.

As far as the escorts? More "top cover" than traditional escorts as if escorting a flight of heavy bombers. I think your point was made there.

 

[cocky pilot]

All good, but from your original post (post 40)

"it was proposed by its designers that it would be 30MPH faster than a spitfire"

Well if you look at the speed of the FIRST operational Mosquito, that never really happened unless you want to include prototypes into this discussion.

As far as the escorts? More "top cover" than traditional escorts as if escorting a flight of heavy bombers. I think your point was made there.

I think you will find that mosquitos could out run their opposition, since goerings quotes are allowed for proving the superiority of the P51 then look up goerings quotes about the Mosquito. Of all the planes in the allied armoury that really got him pissed the Mustang and Mosquito were at the forefront but a mosquito could drop a bomb right on his head (or on his radio transmitter). The Mosquito was a bomber in design and was so fast it was used as a PR aircraft by both allied forces. I dont say that other planes wernt also good planes but I do say none could drop a useful bomb load accurately and escape like a mosquito could. Maybe a P38 was slightly faster or a Corsair....but could they drop a 4000IB cookie. A corsair or lightening had a long range, but how far carrying bombs? The corsair was the best at what it did, and so was the mustang but also so was the mosquito they just did different things. It just happens that both the Mustang and Mosquito were especially good at pissing off Mr Goering.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think you will find that mosquitos could out run their opposition, since goerings quotes are allowed for proving the superiority of the P51 then look up goerings quotes about the Mosquito. Of all the planes in the allied armoury that really got him pissed the Mustang and Mosquito were at the forefront but a mosquito could drop a bomb right on his head (or on his radio transmitter). The Mosquito was a bomber in design and was so fast it was used as a PR aircraft by both allied forces. I dont say that other planes wernt also good planes but I do say none could drop a useful bomb load accurately and escape like a mosquito could. Maybe a P38 was slightly faster or a Corsair....but could they drop a 4000IB cookie. A corsair or lightening had a long range, but how far carrying bombs? The corsair was the best at what it did, and so was the mustang but also so was the mosquito they just did different things. It just happens that both the Mustang and Mosquito were especially good at pissing off Mr Goering.

Understand that when a Mosquito was carrying a 4000 pound bomb, it wasn't flying close to 400 mph either.......Or 300 mph... But both the P-51 and Mossie did piss off Goering.

 

[buffnut453]

Which is a good thing in any right-minded person's book (pissing off Goering, that is)!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Which is a good thing in any right-minded person's book (pissing off Goering, that is)!

Yep - hey, Galland did it well!

 

[mhuxt]

see post 40

The part you've bolded in post 40 is about the designers' claims for 30 mph faster than a Spit. The figure given in the Mosquito "bible" by Sharp and Bowyer is 20 mph faster than the Spit, presented to the Air Ministry in 1939.

The book later states that by February of 1941, the speed differential over the contemporary Spitfire had been confirmed as around 20 mph, hence the sudden spurt of official interest.

 

[mhuxt]

Understand that when a Mosquito was carrying a 4000 pound bomb, it wasn't flying close to 400 mph either.......Or 300 mph... But both the P-51 and Mossie did piss off Goering.

I think you're wrong ther - Mossies didn't fly flat out all the time, same as any other aircraft, but the XVI could do 400 when it needed to. The Air Ministry data card for the XVI gives a max speed at mean weight and 26,000 feet at 397 mph, 406 with no wing bombs.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think you're wrong ther - Mossies didn't fly flat out all the time, same as any other aircraft, but the XVI could do 400 when it needed to. The Air Ministry data card for the XVI gives a max speed at mean weight and 26,000 feet at 397 mph, 406 with no wing bombs.

And what does it give with a max fuel and internal load at maneuvering speed (Va)? Point being it was was not dropping a 4000 pound bomb at 397 mph.

 

[mhuxt]

I think I once saw a test report for the XVI which had it at 386 mph at 95% of max takeoff weight.

Which is rather nearer to 400 mph than not close to it.

And rather better than 300 mph, too.

Edit - Sorry, correct word is "close", not "nowhere near."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think I once saw a test report for the XVI which had it at 386 mph at 95% of max takeoff weight.

Let's see it - I think I once saw bigfoot, could have been the light.

Which is rather nearer to 400 mph than not close to it.

And rather better than 300 mph, too.

But will it perform to Va if you have a clue what that is and deliver its bombs at that speed.

Edit - Sorry, correct word is "close", not "nowhere near."

No, in my part of the world it is nowhere near. Quit while you're ahead, you don't want to piss me off.

 

[mhuxt]

Actually, I edited my post precisely to avoid pissing you off. Your post #91 said "Understand that when a Mosquito was carrying a 4000 pound bomb, it wasn't flying close to 400 mph " and I initially mis-quoted you as saying "nowhere near."

It's report A. A.E.E. report 767 J, and I have it upstairs. Will scan and post a link once my family cease their traditional family argument. And the max speed is 383 mph at 95% of takeoff weight.

Will see if I can find what Sharp Bowyer say re: max speed with bomb doors open.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Actually, I edited my post precisely to avoid pissing you off. Your post #91 said "Understand that when a Mosquito was carrying a 4000 pound bomb, it wasn't flying close to 400 mph " and I initially mis-quoted you as saying "nowhere near."

OK

It's report A. A.E.E. report 767 J, and I have it upstairs. Will scan and post a link once my family cease their traditional family argument. And the max speed is 383 mph at 95% of takeoff weight.

And please see if that is a "normal" take off weight to include max fuel or payload which might include a 4000 lb bomb with less fuel.

Will see if I can find what Sharp Bowyer say re: max speed with bomb doors open.

I'm sure they won't say bomb runs were conducted at 400 mph.