Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war? (3 Viewers)

[Conslaw]

Planes and Pilots of WWII (web Page) has some other charts on speed and climb of P-38L models Climb clean WEP 4.9min to 20,000ft this is also stated in the web page p38(CCJordon). They also show the top speed of the P-38L again clean half load of fuel and full ammo/gun ballast of 443 @ WEP (the 414 often shown is METO power as are all other P-38 specs.) and no I never ment the P-38 was in the leauge of the P-51H or P-47N in the 470 region.

I never mentioned the K model as it was never produced though it's top speed was est to be over 450mph.

P-38L's WEP top air speed of 443 MPH, was what- 25,000, 26,000 feet? What is the P-38's compressibility speed at that altitude? It seems to me that they may have been at a "coffin corner".

 

[michael rauls]

P-38L's WEP top air speed of 443 MPH, was what- 25,000, 26,000 feet? What is the P-38's compressibility speed at that altitude? It seems to me that they may have been at a "coffin corner".

Id have to dig out my copy of Americas 100,000 to be sure but as best I can remember compresability for the p38 was about 500 mph at 25,000 feet. I think slightly in excess of that.
I remember thinking up to about 25,000 feet youd really have to be cookin to get into trouble but abouve that things deteriorate quickly.

 

[michael rauls]

As to the title of the thread I think the p51 was indeed the best escort fighter of the war all things considered. The later p47s could certainly give it a run for its money but at twice the cost.
The p38 probably not as good overall but an earlier design so not sure if its really a fair compairison.
Of course there are various situations where other choices may be better. If, for example, you are flying 3 hrs each way over shark infested waters on said escort mission the two engines of the p38 may be very desirable indeed but overall for most escort missions with great performance at minimum cost don't see how you can beat a Mustang.

 

[Koopernic]

The early P-38s shorter range was because of the smaller droptanks used in the ETO and improper flight procedures. It could outmanuever/manuever with anyaircraft it encountered especialy below15,000/20,000ft.
The P-38 suffered from several issues in the Early days of escort flying
1) Improper training/procedures sometimes pilots with only 20 hrs in fighters and no twin time were given P-38s
2) Because of need, It was the only plane the US had that could fight 1/1 with the german planes and had the range, it was pressed into an area it was not designed for and developed in combat. Problems included Fuel, Training, aircraft heat, because of the altitude cold and fuel the engines were a problem.
3) Early on Odds of 10 German to 1 P-38 were normal and these were the best the German pilots ever.
4) Tactics Close escort and ground attack.

The later P-38s were compettitive with anything in the sky, had more range, faster climb, faster acceleration, faster high speed roll rate, tighter turn higher WEP speed than either the P-51D or the P-47 D though it would have taken the P-38K to stay fairly close speed wise with the H model mustang and M/N P-47s
. These P-38s showed up about the time the P-51Ds showed up.

Durring the war the P-38s while flying either close escort or about half were mossions of ground attack flew 130,000 sorties to the P-51s 214,000 free ranging escort (they got to chase the German aircraft down) score 2,500+ awarded claims during the war to the P-38 and 4,939 awarded to the P-51. The P-38 had a much larger percentage of ground attack than the P-51.

In the other theaters of war with 300 gal drop tanke the P-38 flew missions of over 2,000mi the furthest of any other fighter in the war.

Chech out the following web pages: Planes and Pilots of WWII and p-38online.com they both have some great stuff on the P-38.

The P47N certainly had excellent high altitude performance and range. However if we look at its speed it's performance at sea level to 15000ft that it falls well short of the Mustang. Not only was the P47N slower than a P51D let alone a P51H it was slower than the Allison engined P51A Mustang of 1942. Nothing could beet the Mustang in the thick air at low altitude not the Griffon Spitfire nor even the P47M. Every other aircraft needed to be a in thin air to overcome its imperfections. The Tempest was the only aircraft competitive at low altitude. This may not matter when escorting B29 at 25,000ft but it could matter in some circumstances. The P47 to an extent owes its reputation to its ruggedness. No American ace ever lost his life in a jug.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Is it just me or was a 15 year old thread just resurrected?

 

[GrauGeist]

Is it just me or was a 15 year old thread just resurrected?

Seems to be the trend lately

 

[fubar57]

Some resurrections are needed as new info has been made available but most are not

 

[Kevin J]

Some resurrections are needed as new info has been made available but most are not

I like the resurrection as I've only been on the forum for a few years, so this is interesting for me.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Some resurrections are needed as new info has been made available but most are not

Not sure if serious or trolling...

 

[fubar57]

 

[GrauGeist]

 

[Milosh]

A new thread with the same topic could have been started instead of resurrecting an old thread.

 

[Dan Fahey]

The P47N certainly had excellent high altitude performance and range. However if we look at its speed it's performance at sea level to 15000ft that it falls well short of the Mustang. Not only was the P47N slower than a P51D let alone a P51H it was slower than the Allison engined P51A Mustang of 1942. Nothing could beet the Mustang in the thick air at low altitude not the Griffon Spitfire nor even the P47M. Every other aircraft needed to be a in thin air to overcome its imperfections. The Tempest was the only aircraft competitive at low altitude. This may not matter when escorting B29 at 25,000ft but it could matter in some circumstances. The P47 to an extent owes its reputation to its ruggedness. No American ace ever lost his life in a jug.

Please site that last statistic !!
"No American ace ever lost his life in a jug"
I seriously doubt it !!

 

[fubar57]

Colonel Neel E. Kearby for starters

 

[tomo pauk]

P-38L's WEP top air speed of 443 MPH, was what- 25,000, 26,000 feet? What is the P-38's compressibility speed at that altitude? It seems to me that they may have been at a "coffin corner".

420-425 mph with war emergency power. It was redlined due to compressibility at ~450 mph TAS at 25000 ft.

Id have to dig out my copy of Americas 100,000 to be sure but as best I can remember compresability for the p38 was about 500 mph at 25,000 feet. I think slightly in excess of that.
I remember thinking up to about 25,000 feet youd really have to be cookin to get into trouble but abouve that things deteriorate quickly.

This might be of use: link

 

[grampi]

The P47N certainly had excellent high altitude performance and range. However if we look at its speed it's performance at sea level to 15000ft that it falls well short of the Mustang. Not only was the P47N slower than a P51D let alone a P51H it was slower than the Allison engined P51A Mustang of 1942. Nothing could beet the Mustang in the thick air at low altitude not the Griffon Spitfire nor even the P47M. Every other aircraft needed to be a in thin air to overcome its imperfections. The Tempest was the only aircraft competitive at low altitude. This may not matter when escorting B29 at 25,000ft but it could matter in some circumstances. The P47 to an extent owes its reputation to its ruggedness. No American ace ever lost his life in a jug.

I can't imagine any version of the P-47 being better at anything other than diving and absorbing punishment than the P-51. It was twice its size and weight...that's like comparing the flight performance of a B-25 to a B-17...

 

[Kevin J]

I can't imagine any version of the P-47 being better at anything other than diving and absorbing punishment than the P-51. It was twice its size and weight...that's like comparing the flight performance of a B-25 to a B-17...

It doesn't matter if the Thunderbolt is slower than the Mustangs if your opponents are slower than you. If you're escorting and fighting between 20 and 30 thou feet and your speeds are the same then you're just as good as one another. Surely, in the Pacific, flying from Okinawa to Kyushu, your better off in a Thunderbolt for ruggedness and the Lightning for twin engine safety, than in a less structurally strong Mustang? Iwo Jima is different as you need more range, therefore, late model Mustangs.

 

[michael rauls]

It doesn't matter if the Thunderbolt is slower than the Mustangs if your opponents are slower than you. If you're escorting and fighting between 20 and 30 thou feet and your speeds are the same then you're just as good as one another. Surely, in the Pacific, flying from Okinawa to Kyushu, your better off in a Thunderbolt for ruggedness and the Lightning for twin engine safety, than in a less structurally strong Mustang? Iwo Jima is different as you need more range, therefore, late model Mustangs.

The p47 N that was used yo escort B29s had greater range than the p51.

 

[Kevin J]

The p47 N that was used yo escort B29s had greater range than the p51.

I thought the P-47N flew from Okinawa and the P-51D from Iwo Jima.

 

[grampi]

It doesn't matter if the Thunderbolt is slower than the Mustangs if your opponents are slower than you. If you're escorting and fighting between 20 and 30 thou feet and your speeds are the same then you're just as good as one another. Surely, in the Pacific, flying from Okinawa to Kyushu, your better off in a Thunderbolt for ruggedness and the Lightning for twin engine safety, than in a less structurally strong Mustang? Iwo Jima is different as you need more range, therefore, late model Mustangs.

Speed isn't the only thing that was good to have in a fighter. Turning radius, climb, and general maneuverability are also attributes that are necessary when in combat, and I can't see the P-47 matching the P-51 in any of these categories...and yes, ruggedness mattered too, but was it the most important factor?