Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

[wuzak]

Pardon my ignorance, but which book is that? I'm still trying to connect board names to author names.

P-51B Mustang: North American's Bastard Stepchild that Saved the Eighth Air Force : Marshall, James William "Bill", Ford, Lowell F., Gruenhagen, Col (Ret.) Robert W.: Amazon.com.au: Books

P-51B Mustang: North American's Bastard Stepchild that Saved the Eighth Air Force : Marshall, James William "Bill", Ford, Lowell F., Gruenhagen, Col (Ret.) Robert W.: Amazon.com.au: Books

www.amazon.com.au

 

[33k in the air]

Thanks! I suspected that was the one, but wanted to be sure. (There are lots of great books out there, new and old.)

 

[drgondog]

Pardon my ignorance, but which book is that? I'm still trying to connect board names to author names.

Bill Marshall - the particular book is "P-51B Mustang: North American's Bastard Stepchild that saved the 8th AF" James William Marshall and Lowell Ford Osprey 2020

 

[drgondog]

Previous include "Our Might Always: History of 355th FG in World War II" and "Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons; The 355th FG in WWII"

 

[33k in the air]

Bill Marshall - the particular book is "P-51B Mustang: North American's Bastard Stepchild that saved the 8th AF" James William Marshall and Lowell Ford Osprey 2020

Thank you, sir!

 

[Macandy]

Was the P-51 the best ESCORT fighter of WWII?
ABSOLUTELY!

It was there when it was needed, it was fast enough, it went far enough, it was manouverable enough, it was easy enough to fly.

It wasn't the 'best' fighter, ( A Tempest would fly rings around it), but it was the best generalist - and you could build a P-51 in the same time it took to build a Spitfire with the same engine.

Spitfire? - didn't go far enough
P-47? - harder to fly
P-38? - Wasn't as manoeuvrable

'You win a war being being the firstest with the mostest'

And the P-51 was there when needed in huge numbers giving USAAF pilots a hotrod ride as good or better than the enemies over his homeland, and they tore the heart out of the Luftwaffe.

 

[Mike Williams]

Was the P-51 the best ESCORT fighter of WWII?

It wasn't the 'best' fighter, ( A Tempest would fly rings around it), but it was the best generalist - and you could build a P-51 in the same time it took to build a Spitfire with the same engine.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Tempest would fly rings around the Mustang. They were both excellent fighters in my view and certainly the Mustang was better for long range escort. See ADFU Tactical Trials - Tempest V:

COMPARISON WITH MUSTANG III
Range and Endurance
25. By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62.5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.

Maximum Speed
26. The Tempest V is 15-20 mph faster up to 15,000 ft., there is then no choice to 24,000 ft, when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30 mph faster at 30,000 ft.

Climbs
27. These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height the Tempest has a better zoom climb.

Turning Circle
28. The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.

Rate of Roll
29. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons.

Conclusions
30. The Mustang III has superior range of action and general performance above 24,000 ft. Conclusions should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has a much better rate of climb and speed below 10,000 feet.

 

[Vincenzo]

probably the P-51B/C/D/K were the best escort, but the trouble that left uncovered 3 years and 5 months, so it's sure the best escort from december '43, but before?

 

[Shortround6]

probably the P-51B/C/D/K were the best escort, but the trouble that left uncovered 3 years and 5 months, so it's sure the best escort from december '43, but before?

Best escort for who?
Or when?

If we agree the Zero was a good early war escort the Zero was only good from the end of 1940 to the end of 1942 (if then) so it leaves a a lot of the war uncovered.
The P-38 might be the best from late 1942 to the end of 1943. So it's time span wasn't that great.

 

[pbehn]

Was the P-51 the best ESCORT fighter of WWII?
ABSOLUTELY!

It was there when it was needed, it was fast enough, it went far enough, it was manouverable enough, it was easy enough to fly.

It wasn't the 'best' fighter, ( A Tempest would fly rings around it), but it was the best generalist - and you could build a P-51 in the same time it took to build a Spitfire with the same engine.

Spitfire? - didn't go far enough
P-47? - harder to fly
P-38? - Wasn't as manoeuvrable

'You win a war being being the firstest with the mostest'

And the P-51 was there when needed in huge numbers giving USAAF pilots a hotrod ride as good or better than the enemies over his homeland, and they tore the heart out of the Luftwaffe.

It wasnt there when it was needed because people said a long range escort couldnt be made and wasnt needed anyway. The P-51 started to go in service in late 1943, the huge numbers werent there until mid 1944, USA bombing missions started in 1942 with Spitfires, then P-47s then P-38s and P-51s.

 

[Shortround6]

It wasnt there when it was needed because people said a long range escort couldnt be made and wasnt needed anyway. The P-51 started to go in service in late 1943, the huge numbers werent there until mid 1944, USA bombing missions started in 1942 with Spitfires, then P-47s then P-38s and P-51s.

Define long range please.

Now let sees what was actually available (in production in 1942) for a "long" range escort, like much beyond 300 miles round trip.
And a 300 mile round trip at the speeds and altitudes the B-17s and B-24s would fly.
Edit: sorry guys, I mean 300 mile radius, like England to the Ruhr. Brain fart.

Anybody want to try to estimate the speed/altitudes of a Lancaster with reduced bomb load for a daylight raid go ahead

Allison powered Mustang as B-17 escort even with drop tanks?
P-38 with 300 gallons of internal fuel and drop tanks? (Please use P-38F, but go ahead and throw in a 2nd generator and better cockpit heating)
P-47s are not available yet, regardless of drop tanks.
P-40F & L ? Go ahead and hang a drop tank under each wing, add 10-20 gallons more in the rear fuselage if you want.
The Groundhog with extra fuel where the wing .30 cal guns are

Spitfire V with more than 30-40 gallons in the rear fuselage? (a lot easier to balance big rear tanks when you have a two stage Merlin in front)
A Typhoon?
Anybody seeing a problem here?

To escort the American bombers (or the big British bombers) you needed a plane that could not only fly the distance, it had to fly at a usable altitude and at a useable speed , enough to be able to respond to attackers. It had to be able to at least match the defending fighters.

The two stage Merlin might not have been the only answer but it gave enough power to allow take-offs with addition fuel without absurd runways. It gave enough power to actual fight at around 25,000ft and not just fly in a straight line. It showed up at the right time (or just a bit late) and it could be shoehorned into existing aircraft.
Without the Merlin you would have been looking at single escort fighters powered by the Sabre or Vulture for the British and the R-2800 (Surprise), the twin Allison, or one of the engines that never made it.
Or resort to twin engine fighters, like the P-38.

 

[Vincenzo]

Best escort for who?
Or when?

If we agree the Zero was a good early war escort the Zero was only good from the end of 1940 to the end of 1942 (if then) so it leaves a a lot of the war uncovered.
The P-38 might be the best from late 1942 to the end of 1943. So it's time span wasn't that great.

Also this is true, not all need same escort, but a a fighter that can gain air superiority in enemy airspace, like the P-51, is sure the plus in the escort field.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Regarding combat radius, there are also the Standard Aircraft Characteristics publications by the USAF.

The P-47N, carrying 997 gallons of fuel, had a basic combat radius of 800 nautical miles (920 statute miles).
The P-51H, carrying 480 gallons of fuel, had a basic combat radius of 770 nautical miles (886 statute miles).

The parameters were:

(a) Start engine, warm-up, take-off at sea level; 10 minutes at normal power.
(b) Climb to 25,000 feet at normal power.
(c) Cruise out with long range operation at 25,000 feet (external tanks are dropped when empty).
(d) Combat at 25,000 feet for 5 minutes with maximum power (fluid injection) and 15 minutes with maximum power (dry).*
(e) Cruise back with long range operation at 25,000 feet.
(f) Reserve: 5% of total useable fuel at take-off.

* 5 minutes of maximum power and 15 minutes of military power for the P-47N

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here, I'm more impressed with the P-51H having a CR only 30 miles short of the P-47N... on less than half the fuel.

 

[33k in the air]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here, I'm more impressed with the P-51H having a CR only 30 miles short of the P-47N... on less than half the fuel.

There is no doubt the P-51 is much more fuel efficient, which would reduce the logistical support, in regards to fuel, it would need as compared to the P-47.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

They were specially prepared aircraft modified for that mission plus the pilots were advised by Charles Lindbergh on how to get the best economy possible. The P51 is the best VLR plane used in WW2

Not at that time schooled by Lindbergh.

 

[Macandy]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Tempest would fly rings around the Mustang. They were both excellent fighters in my view and certainly the Mustang was better for long range escort. See ADFU Tactical Trials - Tempest V:

COMPARISON WITH MUSTANG III
Range and Endurance
25. By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62.5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.

Maximum Speed
26. The Tempest V is 15-20 mph faster up to 15,000 ft., there is then no choice to 24,000 ft, when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30 mph faster at 30,000 ft.

Climbs
27. These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height the Tempest has a better zoom climb.

Turning Circle
28. The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.

Rate of Roll
29. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons.

Conclusions
30. The Mustang III has superior range of action and general performance above 24,000 ft. Conclusions should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has a much better rate of climb and speed below 10,000 feet.

"the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest; extremely fast, highly-maneuverable and heavily armed"
Hubert Lange


Although on paper the P-51D was slightly faster than the Tempest, in its element, the Tempest was faster, could out roll it with ease, (It could out roll pretty much anything one it got its spring tab ailerons) had a vastly higher rate of climb, and thanks to its higher P/W ratio, had very impressive acceleration.
There is at least one contemporaneous account of an irritated Tempest pilot turning on a P-51 that's bounced him and chasing it all over the sky to teach the pilot a lesson.

 

[Macandy]

It wasnt there when it was needed because people said a long range escort couldnt be made and wasnt needed anyway. The P-51 started to go in service in late 1943, the huge numbers werent there until mid 1944, USA bombing missions started in 1942 with Spitfires, then P-47s then P-38s and P-51s.

Which must have come as a big surprise to the residents of Berlin who saw their city being bombed by huge numbers of USSAF bombers escorted by fighters in Feb/March 1944
I suspect it came as an even big shock to the very badly mauled Luftwaffe who realised their war was now lost - Nothing says you've lost like enemy fighters roaming at will over your country.

 

[pbehn]

Which must have come as a big surprise to the residents of Berlin who saw their city being bombed by huge numbers of USSAF bombers escorted by fighters in Feb/March 1944
I suspect it came as an even big shock to the very badly mauled Luftwaffe who realised their war was now lost - Nothing says you've lost like enemy fighters roaming at will over your country.

US bombing missions in Europe started in 1942 escorted by Spitfires.

 

[drgondog]

"the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest; extremely fast, highly-maneuverable and heavily armed"
Hubert Lange


Although on paper the P-51D was slightly faster than the Tempest, in its element, the Tempest was faster, could out roll it with ease, (It could out roll pretty much anything one it got its spring tab ailerons) had a vastly higher rate of climb, and thanks to its higher P/W ratio, had very impressive acceleration.
There is at least one contemporaneous account of an irritated Tempest pilot turning on a P-51 that's bounced him and chasing it all over the sky to teach the pilot a lesson.

Entirely too glib. you have to look at the power available charts as function of altitude.

 

[Shortround6]

A lot of these tests are interesting but they only show the results when the test were done.
The Tempest was not equipped with the standard fuel tank set up?
The Tempest was not using the standard engine used in production Tempests.

And the Mustang was using what for boost?
By April of 1944 they were using 67in of boost. this was with 100/130 fuel
In April and May of 1944 were testing with 44-1 fuel (104/150) so the 67in of boost was pretty standard.

Mustangs also shifted from the V-1650-3 engine to the V-1650-7 engine with lower supercharger gears which allowed more power down low.
Which engine and what boost limits were being used in the Mustang III in Jan/Feb of 1944?