Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

Howard Gibson · Feb 18, 2022

Macandy said:
"the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest; extremely fast, highly-maneuverable and heavily armed"
Hubert Lange

Although on paper the P-51D was slightly faster than the Tempest, in its element, the Tempest was faster, could out roll it with ease, (It could out roll pretty much anything one it got its spring tab ailerons) had a vastly higher rate of climb, and thanks to its higher P/W ratio, had very impressive acceleration.
There is at least one contemporaneous account of an irritated Tempest pilot turning on a P-51 that's bounced him and chasing it all over the sky to teach the pilot a lesson.

We are discussing the best escort fighter of the war, and we can make an excellent case for the Mustang.

The RAFs understanding was that the Typhoons and Tempests were to operate below 20,000ft, and the Spitfires were to operate above that altitude. Tempests lurked around German airfields as the Me-262s look off and landed, and were vulnerable to attack. Tempests were very heavily armed, and they were operating at their best combat altitudes, so they were dangerous for piston engined fighters to mess with. Mustangs operated at high altitudes where Me-262s had the time and the ability to accelerate to some 100mph faster.

Mike Williams · Feb 18, 2022

Shortround6 said:
A lot of these tests are interesting but they only show the results when the test were done.
The Tempest was not equipped with the standard fuel tank set up?
The Tempest was not using the standard engine used in production Tempests.

And the Mustang was using what for boost?
By April of 1944 they were using 67in of boost. this was with 100/130 fuel
In April and May of 1944 were testing with 44-1 fuel (104/150) so the 67in of boost was pretty standard.

Mustangs also shifted from the V-1650-3 engine to the V-1650-7 engine with lower supercharger gears which allowed more power down low.
Which engine and what boost limits were being used in the Mustang III in Jan/Feb of 1944?

The Mustang III in the AFDU tactical trials was fitted with a V-1650-3 engine with maximum engine settings of 3,000 rpm and 67" (+18 lbs.) Fuel capacity was 154 gallons. The Tempest V in the AFDU tactical trials was fitted with a Sabre II engine of "approximately 2090 h.p. (same as Typhoon IB)". Test of Tempest V JN.731 from November 1943 to March 1944 fitted with a Sabre IIA engine had operational limitations of 3700 rpm and +9 boost. The Tempest V with Sabre IIA aircraft data card shows 2,180 hp at SL at 3,700 rpm and +9 lbs boost and is in reasonable agreement with these tests. The fuel capacity of the Tempest tested at AFDU was 132 gallons. Perhaps of interest here is US comments of Tempest V JN.729 dated 4 December 1943. "Present limit of the Napier Sabre II A is 3700 rpm and 7 lbs/sq. inch boost. This rating gives approximately 2100 horsepower. The rating is being increased at this time to 3900 rpm and 9 lbs/sq. inch." I'm not sure they got that quite right.

Clearly both Tempest and Mustangs had engine changes and power increases from the summer of 1944 with the Mustang fitted with the V-1650-7 operating at 72" with the US and 80" (+25 lbs) with the RAF while the Tempest V fitted with the Sabre IIb put out 2,420 h.p. operating at 3,850 rpm and 11 lb.

Ovod · Feb 19, 2022

Macandy said:
"the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest; extremely fast, highly-maneuverable and heavily armed"
Hubert Lange

Although on paper the P-51D was slightly faster than the Tempest, in its element, the Tempest was faster, could out roll it with ease, (It could out roll pretty much anything one it got its spring tab ailerons) had a vastly higher rate of climb, and thanks to its higher P/W ratio, had very impressive acceleration.
There is at least one contemporaneous account of an irritated Tempest pilot turning on a P-51 that's bounced him and chasing it all over the sky to teach the pilot a lesson.

I would have thought the Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the P-51 - weren't the overwhelming majority of Me 262s shot down by the Mustang?

drgondog · Feb 19, 2022

Ovod said:
I would have thought the Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the P-51 - weren't the overwhelming majority of Me 262s shot down by the Mustang?

Yes - more than 50%. Distribution included engagements at high altitude through landing approaches. Damaging one engine was largely fatal to the pursued Me 262. The 8th, 9th, and 15th AF owned the eastern territory of the Reich ranging from Stettin through Prague, Munich and Vienna where far more 262s were based than Rhine region.

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 19, 2022

Ovod said:
I would have thought the Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the P-51 - weren't the overwhelming majority of Me 262s shot down by the Mustang?

According to this Quora poster, Steve Rusling:

Only nine squadrons had become operational on Tempests before the end of the war. The type was a rare sight over NW Europe in late 1944 and early 1945. This alone must make it difficult to describe as the Me 262s worst enemy. USAAF escort fighters were far more likely to meet the Luftwaffe Me 262s and it was these aircraft, predominantly P-51s, that accounted for most Me 262s destroyed in aerial combat.

Of the squadrons operating Tempests:

No.3 was credited with 1 Me 262 destroyed and 2 damaged.

No.56 was credited with 2 Me 262s destroyed and 1 damaged.

No.80 was credited with 1 Me 262 destroyed and 1 damaged.

No.274 was credited with 2 Me 262s destroyed and 3 damaged.

No.486 (RNZAF) was credited with 2 Me 262s destroyed and 1 damaged.

The Tempest was fast and heavily armed. It could certainly shoot down an Me 262 if it could catch it.

I can't vouch for these numbers, but he has a point that Mustangs would, in their huge numbers and role as escort, should have far more opportunity to fight the jets.

In the typical scenario of attacking -262s on climb-out or approach, a Tempest should perform at least as well as the Mustang, if not better what with 4x20mm armament.

Both of them would be great dangers to the 262 in the typical scenario.

And our own

drgondog has this to say:

The 8th FC were credited with (IIRC) ~ 139 air credits against German jets of all types and ~110 air to air victories over the Me 262. The 56th got 7 as the 'all P-47' equipped and I think the 78th and 353rd got a couple more before transitioning to 51's. The P-51 was close to 100 and the 8th FC lost 12-15 fighters to Me 262s.

Also the P-51B scored a couple in fall 1944 (Ditto P-47M in 1945) - but have to check for totals.

drgondog · Feb 19, 2022

Just a cursory glance - 4th FG 6x262, 20th 5.5x262, 55th FG 16x262, 78FG 3x262 P-47/9x262 P-51, 339th 11x262, 352nd 7.5x262

Basically individual 8th AF FG, each having more than sum of all Tempest 262 credits

Ovod · Feb 19, 2022

I always knew that the Mustang had the highest tally against the Me-262, some online searching brought me to this website with some extra information - with close attention being paid the post below:

Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII?

By combining the three tables, of known Me262 losses; claims by USAAF; and claims by RAF, in Foreman, Me 262 Combat Diary (1990), assuming that the German numbers are correct, and also that all the dates are as stated, I have obtained the following statistics. In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions.

Shot down by USAAF Mustang 92.5
Shot down by USAAF Thunderbolt 18.83
Shot down by USAAF Lightning 3
Shot down by RAF Spitfire 9.83
Shot down by RAF Tempest 5
Shot down by RAF Typhoon 2
Shot down by RAF Mustang 1.83
Shot down by unknown Mustang 1
Shot down by Russian aircraft 3
Shot down by unknown aircraft 21
---
Unsubstantiated USAAF claims 46
Unsubstantiated RAF claims 10
---
Rammed unknown Spitfire 1
Rammed bomber 3
Shot down by bomber (?) 2
Shot down by enemy flak 10
Shot down by own flak 2
Strafed when landing 1
Destroyed on the ground 34
Mechanical failure/pilot error 146
Other cause/unknown 13

Total losses 370

So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs.

(The figures are not totally reliable. I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. planes that were apparently destroyed twice. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.)

Make of the data what you will, but I think we can all agree: that an aircraft's ubiquity is as important a fighting quality as its flying and handling qualities for combat effectiveness.

pbehn · Feb 19, 2022

Macandy said:
"the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest; extremely fast, highly-maneuverable and heavily armed"
Hubert Lange

Although on paper the P-51D was slightly faster than the Tempest, in its element, the Tempest was faster, could out roll it with ease, (It could out roll pretty much anything one it got its spring tab ailerons) had a vastly higher rate of climb, and thanks to its higher P/W ratio, had very impressive acceleration.
There is at least one contemporaneous account of an irritated Tempest pilot turning on a P-51 that's bounced him and chasing it all over the sky to teach the pilot a lesson.

Is that a direct quote? I thought it mentioned "at low altitude" and stated "was a dangerous opponent"

tomo pauk · Feb 19, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
According to this Quora poster, Steve Rusling:

Only nine squadrons had become operational on Tempests before the end of the war. The type was a rare sight over NW Europe in late 1944 and early 1945. This alone must make it difficult to describe as the Me 262s worst enemy. USAAF escort fighters were far more likely to meet the Luftwaffe Me 262s and it was these aircraft, predominantly P-51s, that accounted for most Me 262s destroyed in aerial combat.

Of the squadrons operating Tempests:

No.3 was credited with 1 Me 262 destroyed and 2 damaged.

No.56 was credited with 2 Me 262s destroyed and 1 damaged.

No.80 was credited with 1 Me 262 destroyed and 1 damaged.

No.274 was credited with 2 Me 262s destroyed and 3 damaged.

No.486 (RNZAF) was credited with 2 Me 262s destroyed and 1 damaged.

The Tempest was fast and heavily armed. It could certainly shoot down an Me 262 if it could catch it.

Mr. Rusling is a member here, too. A well-informed chap, to say at least.

SaparotRob · Feb 19, 2022

Small world!

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 19, 2022

tomo pauk said:
Mr. Rusling is a member here, too. A well-informed chap, to say at least.

I"m glad to learn this, hopefully I get the opportunity to make his acquaintance.

EwenS · Feb 19, 2022

RAF Tempest V units in WW2

486 5 aircraft only from 1/44 to 2/44. Fully re-equipped from 4/44.
3 from 2/44
56 from 6/44
Fighter Interception Unit from 6/44 to 8/44. Merged into 501 squadron
501 from 7/44
80 from 8/44
274 from 8/44
287 from 11/44 (second line squadron for target towing and gun laying)
56 OTU from 12/44
33 from 12/44
222 from 12/44
349 (Belgian) from 2/45 to 4/45. Conversion abandoned.
485 from 2/45 to 4/45. Conversion abandoned

The FIU and 486, 3, 56, 80, 274 and 501 squadrons flew as part of Air Defence of Great Britain initially, covering the D-Day landings and then intercepting V1 from June 1944. At the end of Sept 1944, the first 5 of these squadrons joined 2nd TAF on the Continent along with 2xSpitfire XIV squadrons in exchange for 3 Mustang III and 4 Spitfire IX squadrons. It was felt that Tempests and Spitfire XIV would be better able to tackle the air opposition then being encountered, including the German jets. At the same time the long range Mustang units were needed to support Bomber Command daylight raids. 501 remained in Britain to the end of the war.

33, 222, 349 & 485 were all 2nd TAF squadrons that returned to the U.K. to re-equip. 33 and 222 returned to the Continent in Feb 1945 with their Tempest V for the final few months of the European War. 349 and 485 followied in April on Spitfire IX/XVI.

183 and 247 squadrons were the first to receive the Tempest II in August 1945.

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 19, 2022

drgondog said:
Just a cursory glance - 4th FG 6x262, 20th 5.5x262, 55th FG 16x262, 78FG 3x262 P-47/9x262 P-51, 339th 11x262, 352nd 7.5x262

Basically individual 8th AF FG, each having more than sum of all Tempest 262 credits

I knew you'd have the dope. Thanks, bud!

Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

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