Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

[Greyman]

Please, in no way was I disparaging that fine site or Mike Williams. At all. Just wondering where those figures had been for the last 65 years. Maybe they have the only copy.

Ah, I get you. Sorry for the inference. In terms of releasing old material like this I think the bottleneck is more at the very small numbers of people organizing and labeling the material for release. There's mountains of stuff and often it's just archive/museum volunteers going through it and indexing it properly for us to eventually find.

That would be the second bottleneck; one of us eventually coming across it. Sometimes made all the more difficult by mislabeling or typo errors.

 

[MiTasol]

Ah, I get you. Sorry for the inference. In terms of releasing old material like this I think the bottleneck is more at the very small numbers of people organizing and labeling the material for release. There's mountains of stuff and often it's just archive/museum volunteers going through it and indexing it properly for us to eventually find.

That would be the second bottleneck; one of us eventually coming across it. Sometimes made all the more difficult by mislabeling or typo errors.

A further factor is that much of the material was microfilmed and you get it now as a PDF and the quality ranges from fantastic to like this page (from George Kenney's diary from Feb 1942) to unreadable. And there are 8 Kenney diaries with hundreds of pages each. You can find a roll of 2000 pages with 20 on the subject you are researching but the index is useless because of either errors in the frame index (common) and/or when they digitized they did not include blank pages. Some records were single sided so every second page in the frame index is missing so the item the index says is on page 1400 may be anywhere from 700 on - and the microfilm frame numbers (just above DECLASSIFIED on the bottom of the page) are often unreadable so they are almost useless.

and some of the indexes are less than helpful as well

 

[P-39 Expert]

Ah, I get you. Sorry for the inference. In terms of releasing old material like this I think the bottleneck is more at the very small numbers of people organizing and labeling the material for release. There's mountains of stuff and often it's just archive/museum volunteers going through it and indexing it properly for us to eventually find.

That would be the second bottleneck; one of us eventually coming across it. Sometimes made all the more difficult by mislabeling or typo errors.

Makes sense, thanks for your help.

So, 2012 may have been the first time the public had seen the whole report? Kind of sheds a new light on the P-39.

 

[Jimbob]

I have said this before, but, in my line of work I have met many German pilots who to a man walked by a hangar full of mustangs and stopped in front of the P-47 and said "I Hate these things. I got shot down by one of these." The Mustang has the range by far ,so it's up in the air as to which is the better fighter. I believe we needed both to achieve the bomber escort missions successfully.

 

[drgondog]

I have said this before, but, in my line of work I have met many German pilots who to a man walked by a hangar full of mustangs and stopped in front of the P-47 and said "I Hate these things. I got shot down by one of these." The Mustang has the range by far ,so it's up in the air as to which is the better fighter. I believe we needed both to achieve the bomber escort missions successfully.

True - that said, there were a lot more shot down by Mustangs that didn't get to walk by a hangar of Mustangs because they were dead.

 

[Greyman]

I wonder if -- among its many laudable allocates -- the Mustang can claim the lurid honour of gunning the most chutes in WWII.

 

[GrauGeist]

I wonder if -- among its many laudable allocates -- the Mustang can claim the lurid honour of gunning the most chutes in WWII.

By and large Allied pilots were the least likely to shoot a downed airman in the silk.

It did happen on occasion (PTO excluded) because of circumstances of passion, but I certainly would not say that the mustang (or Spitfire, Thunderbolt, Typhoon, Lightning, Hurricane, et al) has any distinction for such a thing.

 

[DarrenW]

I know that Spitfire XIVs could carry their drop tanks into combat, did the P51s do so as well?

I've read accounts were USN pilots would engage Japanese fighters without dropping tanks (and on occasion even bombs), that's the level of performance they held over their Japanese counterparts late in the war. I'm sure things were quite different in the ETO where performance envelopes were much closer.

 

[DarrenW]

I really enjoyed watching this recent video posted on Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles, as it really gets down to the nuts and bolts concerning the Thunderbolt's range performance. I want to know what all of you think of his revelations.

I have a ton of respect for this guy and want to make clear up front that it's not my intention to find fault with his calculations. From my perspective he covers things pretty effectively and uses sound reasoning when coming up with his statistics.

Of course I don't have nearly the knowledge on the subject as some of you here so any miscalculations which may exist in the video would most certainly go unnoticed by me. ENJOY!

 

[tomo pauk]

...
Of course I don't have nearly the knowledge on the subject as some of you here so any miscalculations which may exist in the video would most certainly go unnoticed by me. ENJOY!

Unfortunately, there are some important miscalculations in the video. The 1st is that Greg mixes the 200 gal 'cow udder', slipper ferry tank with a 'drop tank of 200 gals'. The only 200 gal drop tank, besides what was produced by Ford of Australia, was that ferry tank. It could not be pressurized - a major problem if one intends to use it at high altitudes, where it was needed.
He also states several times that 2300 HP, achieved via water injection, was available in mid 1943 - not the case, the 1st WI kits were in use by December of 1943 (January 1944?) in the ETO. The power levels used in 1943 for radius calculations were 5 min military power, 15 min max continuous.
There was no P-47B in ETO service, unlike it was mentioned in video (~33 min mark).

 

[P-39 Expert]

Unfortunately, there are some important miscalculations in the video. The 1st is that Greg mixes the 200 gal 'cow udder', slipper ferry tank with a 'drop tank of 200 gals'. The only 200 gal drop tank, besides what was produced by Ford of Australia, was that ferry tank. It could not be pressurized - a major problem if one intends to use it at high altitudes, where it was needed.
He also states several times that 2300 HP, achieved via water injection, was available in mid 1943 - not the case, the 1st WI kits were in use by December of 1943 (January 1944?) in the ETO. The power levels used in 1943 for radius calculations were 5 min military power, 15 min max continuous.
There was no P-47B in ETO service, unlike it was mentioned in video (~33 min mark).

How do you feel about his belief that the 8th AF mislead the higher ups about the need for escort?

 

[tomo pauk]

How do you feel about his belief that the 8th AF mislead the higher ups about the need for escort?

The higher-ups misled the 8th AF (and other AFs) about the need for escort, not the other way around. Granted, the 8t AF brass made a number of bad calls wrt. the need for supplying the P-47s (their predominant fighter in the ETO from Spring to the Winter of 1943) once the need for escorts dawned on them.
Contrary to them, the 5th AF commander, Gen. Kenney, was instrumental in getting the metal 200 gal 'flat' tank for 'his' P-47s, pronto; those were manufactured by Ford in Brisbane, Australia.

 

[DarrenW]

The 1st is that Greg mixes the 200 gal 'cow udder', slipper ferry tank with a 'drop tank of 200 gals'. The only 200 gal drop tank, besides what was produced by Ford of Australia, was that ferry tank. It could not be pressurized - a major problem if one intends to use it at high altitudes, where it was needed.

Yeah I remember that discussion too but thought that there possibly was 'another' 200 gallon tank used in the ETO that I was unaware of. Thanks Tomo for clearing that up for me.

The "official" range charts from September 1943 he was relying on (10:20 mark in video) looked similar to those presented by Reluctant Poster earlier in this thread. Are those then the most accurate regarding range determinations for escort duty? He thoroughly bashed the more commonly found range charts as overly optimistic and people here on the forum tend to agree. If they are indeed correct then the P-47D with 305 gallons of internal fuel and 108 gallon belly tank had a maximum escort radius of about 300 miles.

A big point that he was trying to make throughout the video is that even though the the P-51 was statically the superior escort fighter of the two (greater range while using far less fuel), the P-47D could be relied upon for escort duty too as it still had ample range (which steadily evolved by increasing internal fuel and mounting larger/more external tanks), thus it was an excellent alternative to the Mustang right up to the EOW.

 

[tomo pauk]

The "official" range charts from September 1943 he was relying on (10:20 mark in video) looked similar to those presented by Reluctant Poster earlier in this thread. Are those then the most accurate regarding range determinations for escort duty? He thoroughly bashed the more commonly found range charts as overly optimistic and people here on the forum tend to agree. If they are indeed correct then the P-47D with 305 gallons of internal fuel and 108 gallon belly tank had a maximum escort radius of about 300 miles.

Let's recall that power settings used during the best part of 1943 were lower than what was used once WI kits were introduced, and R-2800s were allowed for 15min for military power vs. just 5 min in 1943. Lower power settings = better mileage. So IMO the 375 mile radius for 305+110 gals was probably true for 1943, while it might not be true in 1944.

A big point that he was trying to make throughout the video is that even though the the P-51 was statically the superior escort fighter of the two (greater range while using far less fuel), the P-47D could be relied upon for escort duty too as it still had ample range (which steadily evolved by increasing internal fuel and mounting larger/more external tanks), thus it was an excellent alternative to the Mustang right up to the EOW.

The 'razorback' P-47 with two drop tanks would've been great in 1943 - talk perhaps 450-500 mile radius. Unfortunately, such P-47s were not ordered by the costumer. And when those arrived in ETO, the P-51B/C was established as the LR escort fighter, with track record.
The 'bubbletop' P-47s, with internal fuel increased to 370 gals, were late in the same vein.

 

[P-39 Expert]

The manufacturers (Allison & PW) increased the combat power limit from 5 minutes to 15 minutes in mid-1942.

 

[tomo pauk]

The manufacturers (Allison & PW) increased the combat power limit from 5 minutes to 15 minutes in mid-1942.

The manual for the P-47B, C, D and G, dated January 20th 1943, notes 5 min limit for military power.

 

[drgondog]

I really enjoyed watching this recent video posted on Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles, as it really gets down to the nuts and bolts concerning the Thunderbolt's range performance. I want to know what all of you think of his revelations.

I have a ton of respect for this guy and want to make clear up front that it's not my intention to find fault with his calculations. From my perspective he covers things pretty effectively and uses sound reasoning when coming up with his statistics.

Of course I don't have nearly the knowledge on the subject as some of you here so any miscalculations which may exist in the video would most certainly go unnoticed by me. ENJOY!

I don't have time to finish the video in one sitting - but here are my thoughts:
There was a bomber mafia, General Arnold was part of it but he was a Skeptic that the 'bomber would also get through' beginning with the intelligence reports filtering in as early as the war in Spain. The Pursuit aircraft obviously had the upper hand. In 1939 Arnold appointed the Emmons Board to evaluate priorities for AAC Development. They came back with an escort fighter with 1500 mi range as no. 4 but he re-assigned the escort fighter as no. 1. The issue wasn't that thinking wasn't evolving - it was deemed impossible unless a twin engine fighter - and worthless as a T/E against much smaller and maneuverability of a single engine fighter.

Materiel Command got stuck on two technical issues - a.) wedded to turbo-supercharged engines for high altitude, b.) refusal to expend research dollars to develop a 2s/2stage in-line engine. AAF-MC was central to barring the external fuel tank for combat purposes but the 1942 Arnold Conference set two high complimentary objectives for fighter escort development - a.) External self-sealing combat tanks, and b.) forcing increases to internal fuel supply. It took a long time for MC to lead development of the self sealing tank - the first 75 gal externals didn't reach 8th AF until August 1943.

Re: the P-47 range issues: I will spend more time viewing the P-47 video, but the leading variable to get you home is how much internal fuel you have remaining when you quit fighting and turn for home. The R-2800 was far more of a gas hog than either the P-51 or the P-38 . Consider that the MAXIMUM fuel available if you could take off, climb and cruise on externals
P-47D through -23 = 305 gal
P-38 through J-10 = 300 gal, the 410gal for the P-38J-15 and subs. 210gal per engine.
P-51B w/85 gal fuse tank = 269gal = 269 gal per engine.
The total Parasite drag of the Mustang was 2/3 of the P-47/P-38

On a time phased comparison the P-47C/D with only 305g internal fuel had a Combat radius (including 20 minutes of military and 20 MP/5 combat power with WI) of 125mi.
The Mustang on 184 gal = 150mi (no internal 85 gal fuse tank)
P38 on 300 gal = 130 mi.

The 200 gal ferry tank was extremely draggy and unpressurized above 18000 feet, (reducing useful fuel to approximately 100 gallons).. it was used briefly in July 1943/Aug 1943 and extended range to approx 200 mi; with the 75 gal pressurized low drag tank = 230mi; with 1x108gal =275mi; with 1x150 =300 mi; with 2x150gal =425mi. The latter config available to only field modified P-47Ds or factor P-47D-16bthrough-23. Approximately April 1944.
The Combat radius straight line from Duxford to Berlin was approx 510mi.

By contrast the P-51B with internal 85 gal fuse tank plus 2x75 gal external tanks - 705 mi. Approximately late February 1944.

 

[P-39 Expert]

The manual for the P-47B, C, D and G, dated January 20th 1943, notes 5 min limit for military power.

Yes, each specific engine flight chart for each engine is dated and some have revisions and revised dates. The figures for each chart may have been revised later.

But every single Allison and PW powered plane tested in wwiiaircraftperformance.org had a 5 minute limit before June 30, 1942 and every one after that date had a 15 minute limit.

 

[DarrenW]

Let's recall that power settings used during the best part of 1943 were lower than what was used once WI kits were introduced, and R-2800s were allowed for 15min for military power vs. just 5 min in 1943. Lower power settings = better mileage. So IMO the 375 mile radius for 305+110 gals was probably true for 1943, while it might not be true in 1944.

Oh alright that makes sense. I wasn't factoring in the additional fuel used for the extended period at the higher power settings.

IIRC he also mentions that incorporating fighter relays essentially removed the original requirement of weaving with the bomber stream which helped increased escort range as well.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

A big point that he was trying to make throughout the video is that even though the the P-51 was statically the superior escort fighter of the two (greater range while using far less fuel), the P-47D could be relied upon for escort duty too as it still had ample range (which steadily evolved by increasing internal fuel and mounting larger/more external tanks), thus it was an excellent alternative to the Mustang right up to the EOW.

I agree with Tomo, and I add my own thoughts below.

While you CAN spend 1 hour arguing about fuel graphs, the simple fact was that the P51 came in and even when in tiny numbers, it began knocking down German fighters at a very notably higher rate than any other USAAF fighter.

Some snippets below sourced from Maxwell AFB Historical branch: Reel A1128.

I`ve read through a LOT of these USAAF microfilms, and I have not seen any hints at all that the P 47 was unfairly phased out. Its abundantly clear
that it was inferior in range, and not quite as well able to deal with GAF fighters as the 51.