DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Excellent stuff as always Bill. Thanks for spelling everything out for me in plain and simple terms.
Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?
- Thread starter Jank
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Excellent stuff as always Bill. Thanks for spelling everything out for me in plain and simple terms.
drgondog
Major
Darren - the number one bottleneck was the inability of AAF-MC to conceive of the feasibility of the powerful two stage/two speed supercharged engine in the late 1930's. There is evidence that Allison solicited funds from GM and were turned down primarily because the AAF would not guarantee R&D funding. Fortunately R-R had no such inhibitions.
Because the AAF-MC discounted the feasibility of the power low drag high altitude supercharged engine - the design RFP's to Arnold's prioritzing #1 a 1500 mi range escort fighter, all attention turned to large in-line engines such as the Continental, and twin engine designs capable of the fuel fractions to provide (primarily) proven radial engine technologies. The P-61 didn't start out as a Night Fighter. The XP-75 was the bastard design employing the 'go large' In line engine.
Based on my research I place the primary blame on Oliver Echols' shoulders as CO of Materiel Command from 1940 forward.
Back to the P-47C/D. Recall that both the P-47 and P-38 started life as interceptors and the fuel fractions were large enough to perform that function. In comparison however, the P-38 was positioned to better capitalize on longer range mission flexibility from late 1940 when they undertook adding pylons, reinforced wing and internal plumbing in the wing to feed pylon fuel tanks.
That said, the Mustang series beginning with 170 gallons of internal fuel (per single engine) already trumped the P-38 with 300 gallons internal fuel (150 gal per engine).
When the Barney Giles memo (Chief of Air Staff and 2nd in command to Arnold) in July 1943 to escalate priority of increasing internal fuel to Lockheed, NAA and Republic - the basic designs of the Mustang and P-38 lent themselves to major increases in prototype immediately. Additionally, due to the A-36 and P-51A designs, fuel feed, bomb rack and external fuel tank capability was in play from fall 1942. The P-38F was positioned in Spring 1942.
Unfortunately the Republic foundation design had zero provision (structurally and design space within C/D wing). That forced the two stage interim design changes which took until spring of 1944 to deliver the P-47D-16 with factory wing pylon, internal wing plumbing, and wing tank capability to add up to 300 gallons (ETO) of external fuel. Republic began issuing kits in the Fall of 1943 but the Depot mod time in ETO was many weeks to install. It took several more months before the re-designed internal mid fuselage to add 70 more gallons of INTERNAL fuel P-47D-25 arrived into operations. The first record of the -25 that I have found exist with three P-47D-25s (one flown by Zemke on May 12) in 56th FG mid May. Squadron level deployment in ETO didn't happen until well after D-Day.
More factors crippling the P-47D in contrast to P-51B. With the 85 gallon internal fuel tank, the P-51B with 75 gallon external tanks had far less pylon and tank drag than the P-47 with huge pylons and 2x150 gallon tanks. The cruise MPG for the R-2800 was at best about 3mpg at 25000 feet (Clean without pylons). The P-51B cruise MPG (clean with pylons) was 5MPG+ at 25K.
The internal fuel available when combat starts is THE factor determining Combat Radius for mission planning.
When the P-47D-25 finally arrived, it COULD have performed the same mission that the P-38H/J with external 150 gallon tanks, but no LE 55gal tanks. It could have performed a Target escort to Berlin - but by that time of squadron/group TO&E arrived, only 4 P-47D equipped FGs were left in 8th AF. 11 P-51 equipped FG were more than enough to Sweep and provide Target Escort for the 8th AF
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
The two stage Allison was in production from April 1943.
An excellent thread all the way through. My personal feeling is that yes, the Mustang was the preeminent escort fighter of the war. While late war aircraft such as the P-47N might have eclipsed the Mustang in performance their introduction were too late to affect the course of the war the way the Mustang did. This has all been stated by others earlier. I also wanted to share the attached image which popped up on my FB feed yesterday. Seemed timely to this conversation. Unfortunately, the image has a couple issues....
Hm, a couple of things with that entry you've copied there, Nevada - nothing you've done of course; firstly, that's not a P-51, it's a Mustang I and I'm willing to bet that wasn't taken in 1944, more like late 1941 early 1942. The background is fake, and the Mustang has half of its elevator surface area, and its rotating propellers are painted on!
Hi nuuumannn,
Agreed, the image has all sorts of issues! It looks like a propaganda shot for use in publications celebrating the RAF's newest fighter. It was pretty common to tweak images like this during the war, either to hide a design detail or just make it look more photogenic. I posted the screen shot more for the Atomic Testing Museum's P-51 factoid than the image.
Thanks!
Kk
tengu1979
Airman
In the late part of the war definately P-51 was the superlative escort fighter. Definately better firepower than Yak-9DD had. But for the early part I would go with Zero. More than decent compromise for Speed, Firepower and Range to provide support in places where there shouldnt be any.
drgondog
Major
It is NA-73 Mustang I AG348 with short carb scoop. The carb scoop was changed and AG348 was shipped to UK via panama canal approx. July 1941.
I'm going to be the devils advocate and say the only reason the P51 could fly long range escort missions was because the Spitfires Typhoons and Tempests of the 2TAF and Thunderbolts of the US Eighth AF pushed the depleted remnants of the Luftwaffe back across the European continent to the point that venturing outside the German border was impossible, Galland I believe said that exact thing. In the Pacific the same, the Japanese were in an even worst situation having neither the planes nor pilots or command or control to mount anything in the way of an organised defense, having a storm responsible for the P51's worst loss's backs that up. As much as I admire the P 51 it was the glamour girl of the war, every book video or movie of the air war in WW2 shows ''D'' series 'stangs with twin drop tanks flying across Europe blasting Fw's and Me's out of the sky, that could only happen because of the four years of heavy lifting by other Allied aircraft
Shortround6
Major General
The thing is the other aircraft could not fly the distances needed for the long escort missions even with the the Luftwaffe pushed back.
It was also never intended (or actually done) for one group of fighters (P-51s) to accompany the bombers all the way to the target and back home again.
They always planned to use groups of fighters operating in relays to escort the bombers and in fact some of the other fighter types were used as entry escorts or exit escorts leaving the Mustangs as the escorts on the deep penetration part of the missions.
Your theory also does not explain how or why the fighter groups equipped with Mustangs ran up such large kill to loss ratios almost from the time they started flying Mustangs and a number of them were converting from P-47s. Same pilots, same missions, timing is off by only a few weeks (or 4--8 weeks). Was the Luftwaffe that much more badly beat up by the other planes in such a short period of time?
It was also never intended (or actually done) for one group of fighters (P-51s) to accompany the bombers all the way to the target and back home again.
They always planned to use groups of fighters operating in relays to escort the bombers and in fact some of the other fighter types were used as entry escorts or exit escorts leaving the Mustangs as the escorts on the deep penetration part of the missions.
Your theory also does not explain how or why the fighter groups equipped with Mustangs ran up such large kill to loss ratios almost from the time they started flying Mustangs and a number of them were converting from P-47s. Same pilots, same missions, timing is off by only a few weeks (or 4--8 weeks). Was the Luftwaffe that much more badly beat up by the other planes in such a short period of time?
It fought against obsolete and or poorly manufactured planes in both Europe and in the Pacific flown by pilots with minimal flight hours and experience, you could argue many German/Japanese pilots flying from 1944 were nothing but cannon fodder. The P 51 was the best escort fighter of the war in my opinion but only because it made good use of the situation it found itself in, nothing more.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Was the opposition (both Luftwaffe and Japan) diminished by the time the Merlin Mustang got into combat? Sure.
Was the P-51 the best FIGHTER of the war? Absolutely. All that internal fuel and still faster and better climb at all altitudes. And no real weaknesses. Able to fly unheard of distances and defeat smaller point defense interceptors over their own territory.
And the Luftwaffe was not that diminished in late '43. They had just soundly defeated the 8th AF in their two long range missions to Schweinfurt.
Could the P-38 and P-47 win air superiority over Europe in time for the invasion by themselves? Maybe. Could the Mustang have done it by themselves? Certainly if available in the same numbers.
The Spitfire was a great plane if their opponent was the English Channel and the low countries.
Like the Panther tank on the ground the P-51 was the best mix of desired combat abilities for a fighter aircraft.
But in my opinion the credit for depleting the Luftwaffe by killing lots of experienced pilots during the critical phase of late 43 to early 44 goes to the P-47.
But in my opinion the credit for depleting the Luftwaffe by killing lots of experienced pilots during the critical phase of late 43 to early 44 goes to the P-47.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Only because the P-51 was not there yet in '43 and in vastly fewer numbers in early '44. Mustang was better, just as fast and much better climb. And you weren't going to Berlin in a Thunderbolt.
Kevin J
Banned
As a long range escort, I agree
Theoretically, you could get to Berlin in a late model P-47D with teardrop canopy, but you needed both underwing and fuselage drop tanks and the Jug was a real gas guzzler. It was better to use the Mustang.
drgondog
Major
Nice try but the thesis that 2TAF pushed the "depleted Luftwaffe back across the continent", is badly flawed. LuftFlotte 3 was the sword that was assigned and defended defense of the Kanalfront and was never pushed out until France was over run. Lwbh Mitte, then LuftFlotte Reich was the large unit with the rest of the western defense of Germany forces primarily from German Border east and north and south of Germany.
I always love a good contrarian argument. You are correct, the Mustang is one of the glamour girls of the war, just as the spitfire, mosquito, lancaster, b-17, thunderbolt and a couple others hold mythic status. Did the Mustang arrive a little later in the war than the P-47 and Spitfire? Without a doubt. That doesn't change the fact that it was the best escort fighter of the war on the simple fact that the Mustang took the fight where the other fighters couldn't. Since a lot of credence is given to Eric Brown on such issues here are his thoughts on the Mustang:
Chief Naval Test Pilot Eric Brown, tested the Mustang at RAE Farnborough in March 1944 and noted, "The Mustang was a good fighter and the best escort due to its incredible range, make no mistake about it. It was also the best American dogfighter. But the laminar flow wing fitted to the Mustang could be a little tricky. It could not by any means out-turn a Spitfire. No way. It had a good rate-of-roll, better than the Spitfire, so I would say the plusses to the Spitfire and the Mustang just about equate. If I were in a dogfight, I'd prefer to be flying the Spitfire. The problem was I wouldn't like to be in a dogfight near Berlin, because I could never get home to Britain in a Spitfire!"
I do think the argument that the air war in Europe was pretty much over and Mustangs were just mopping up is incorrect. (disclaimer: I'm not a historian and I'm sure that I'm getting stuff wrong in this next part) My understanding is that there was redistribution of LW fighter strengths and types following USAAF bombing raids in 1943 to better enable the LW to attack the bomber streams once they had passed beyond the range of existing escort fighters. This seems like a sensible adjustment. On the other hand, the Luftwaffe still existed in strength in France and fully defended the continent. This can be seen in the USAAF/RAF pre-D-Day assessments that the the Luftwaffe controlled the air in early 1944. The USAAF/RAF campaign to establish air superiority over Europe (Big Week/Operation Argument) began in February 1944. One factor in the timing of Big Week was the activation of sufficient numbers of P-51's. Without Big Week, the Transport Plan has a more difficult execution also affecting the Normandy Landing.
Was the P-51 the only fighter involved in Big Week? No, of course not. But, it was the plane that planners were depending on. Had the air war over France been determined by the time the P-51 arrived? No, as can be seen in the change in operations by the USAAF in the Fall of 1943. Is the Mustang a popular cultural icon? Yes, but so is the Spitfire among others. That shouldn't be something that is held against it.
On an aviation forum it is very easy to make aviation the air battles the most important. In fact it was a military conflict, the allies used their air power to ensure that the war on the ground and on the sea was won. A large part was destroying the LW as much as possible on the air and the ground, but there were other parts, attacking oil supplies, the "transport plan", destroying defences in Normandy and destroying more defences away from Normandy so that Normandy wasn't seen as the obvious landing place. The problem for the LW was it wasn't a question P-51 or P-47 or even P-38 and Typhoon/Tempest because they had all of them to contend with. Some units re equipped with P-51s but others re equipped with longer range p-47s and some switched role to ground attack. I recently posted the history from Wiki of LW airfields in Belgium and Netherlands, few were hit by major raids by "heavies" but there were many attacks by P-47s initially fighters shooting them up on the way home then later as fighter bombers or escorting less glamorous raids with medium bombers. There is no doubt in my mind that the P-51 was the best long range escort, and so was best at forcing the LW into the air or hitting it on the ground, but all others played a part.
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LuftFlotte 3 was brutalized leading up to D Day, all it's facilities airfields and aircraft were rendered unusable, it was reinforced the week following the invasion but could not mount any kind of worthwhile offensive or defensive operations, to make matters worse, a number of it's Flak batteries were moved East to protect hydrogenation plants. The RAF and Eighth AF fought a war of attrition over France, the RAF focused on the Channel coast, 2nd TAF and Eighth AF inland. As quoted in The rise and fall of the German Air force, the Luftwaffe over France by August 1944 was an utterly spent force.
You just supported my argument, was the P 51 the best escort fighter of the war, absolutely yes, could it have done what it did before 1943 if hypothetically it was available, absolutely not.
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