Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

[Kevin J]

You just supported my argument, was the P 51 the best escort fighter of the war, absolutely yes, could it have done what it did before 1943 if hypothetically it was available, absolutely not.

The Mustang does have a competitor for the best escort fighter, one that was designed to be an escort fighter from the beginning, the Yak series of fighters. Not designed to escort heavy bombers, but attack aircraft.

 

[wuzak]

The rise and fall of the German Air force, the Luftwaffe over France by August 1944 was an utterly spent force.

I wonder what allied aircraft was in use over Europe leading up to August 1944.

 

[pbehn]

LuftFlotte 3 was brutalized leading up to D Day, all it's facilities airfields and aircraft were rendered unusable, it was reinforced the week following the invasion but could not mount any kind of worthwhile offensive or defensive operations, to make matters worse, a number of it's Flak batteries were moved East to protect hydrogenation plants. The RAF and Eighth AF fought a war of attrition over France, the RAF focused on the Channel coast, 2nd TAF and Eighth AF inland. As quoted in The rise and fall of the German Air force, the Luftwaffe over France by August 1944 was an utterly spent force.

By August 1944 the same could be said for most of the German military, they were in retreat in the east, in Italy and south of France. It is less than 250 miles from Falaise to the Belgian border and all within reach of air forces based in UK and N France.

 

[P-39 Expert]

As a long range escort, I agree

Theoretically, you could get to Berlin in a late model P-47D with teardrop canopy, but you needed both underwing and fuselage drop tanks and the Jug was a real gas guzzler. It was better to use the Mustang.

The teardrop canopy P-47s arrived too late for the battle for air supremacy over Europe.

 

[davparlr]

The Mustang does have a competitor for the best escort fighter, one that was designed to be an escort fighter from the beginning, the Yak series of fighters. Not designed to escort heavy bombers, but attack aircraft.

The only info I could find was that the Yak 3, an apparently very good dog fighter, did not have very good range compared to the P-51 and lower ceiling. Its light weight would question its armor protection. An interesting series on youtube titled The Attackers, which is based on front line aerodrome flying Yak 3s has the pilots complaining that the Bf 109s had armor seats, implying that the Yaks did not. I enjoyed the series which is a mishmash of combat and romance but shows what a combat squadron of Russian Yak 3s was like, at least from a Russian point of view. I would rate the Yak 3 as a very good low level, short range, tactical escort but not a strategic escort.

 

[tomo pauk]

Tier 1 of the escort fighters was represented by Merlin Mustangs, P-38s and 'bubbletop' P-47s. Earlier in the war - Zero, Ki-61.
Tier 2 - other fighters outfitted with drop tanks.
Tier 3 - other fighters not outfitted with drop tanks. Here the Soviet fighters belong.

 

[stona]

Wow! 28 pages, which I haven't read in their entirety.

I'd give a one word answer....Yes.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

You just supported my argument, was the P 51 the best escort fighter of the war, absolutely yes, could it have done what it did before 1943 if hypothetically it was available, absolutely not.

====================================

Göring in long rant about how he cant even bomb Glasgow precedes this:
Galland replies immdiatey after:

Galland:
"I must say, in a Mustang - thats how you can do it."
ORIGINAL: (In einer Mustang! - muss man, dann auch sagen.)

Erhard Milch:
"The Mustang is in another class altogether"
ORIGINAL: (Der Mustang liegt in einer anderen Klasse.)
====================================

RLM stenographic records, 23rd May 1944, 11am.
(35mm microfilm from IWM London, Vol 64, Frame 6965)

 

[tomo pauk]

Thank you, Calum. Have some bacon

 

[Kevin J]

The only info I could find was that the Yak 3, an apparently very good dog fighter, did not have very good range compared to the P-51 and lower ceiling. Its light weight would question its armor protection. An interesting series on youtube titled The Attackers, which is based on front line aerodrome flying Yak 3s has the pilots complaining that the Bf 109s had armor seats, implying that the Yaks did not. I enjoyed the series which is a mishmash of combat and romance but shows what a combat squadron of Russian Yak 3s was like, at least from a Russian point of view. I would rate the Yak 3 as a very good low level, short range, tactical escort but not a strategic escort.

I think you'll find the Yak is the only Allied fighter actually designed from the start as an escort fighter.

 

[Dimlee]

The Mustang does have a competitor for the best escort fighter, one that was designed to be an escort fighter from the beginning, the Yak series of fighters. Not designed to escort heavy bombers, but attack aircraft.

In the WWII Yak fighter series, only Yak-9D and Yak-9DD were designed as escort fighters from the beginning.

 

[Kevin J]

In the WWII Yak fighter series, only Yak-9D and Yak-9DD were designed as escort fighters from the beginning.

They were designed as escorts from the beginning, light weight, light armament, highly manoeuvrable. The Yak-9D/DD just had longer range.

 

[Dimlee]

I would rate the Yak 3 as a very good low level, short range, tactical escort but not a strategic escort.

Yak-3 was not an escort by design. It was used as an escort occasionally, when required, like all other Soviet fighters. But it was not well prepared for such missions due to the short range and primitive radio and navigation equipment.

 

[fubar57]

The I-26, which begat the Yak-1 was designed as "....a front-line (tactical) fighter, for low and medium altitudes....". "Yakovlev's Piston-Engined Fighters" Gordon & Khazanov

 

[Dimlee]

They were designed as escorts from the beginning, light weight, light armament, highly manoeuvrable. The Yak-9D/DD just had longer range.

Yakovlev tried to design the fighter which could oppose Bf 109 and to win the air dominance. Specialized "escort" fighters were designed by others and they were twin-engined in accordance with the pre-war doctrine. For the single-engined fighter, the escort duty was just a part of the job and not the most important.
When VVS gained more experience they began to develop tactical methods for various types. So, eventually, lighter Yak-1/1b/7 were found to be better for an escort at short range, La-5 - at longer range, P-39 was used as a "strike fighter" in more tactically advanced units as under Pokryshkin's command, etc.
Yak-9D was the first (and not very successful) attempt to overcome the disadvantage of Yaks in the range. Yakovlev was under a constant barrage of critics from the VVS and the Army. Yak-9DD became the better version and the first real, well thought, and suitably equipped, single-engined escort fighter of VVS which could follow Tu-2 and lend leased bombers in their "long" (by VVS standards) raids.

 

[pbehn]

Was any aircraft designed as long range escort? The P-51 certainly wasn't. The Mosquito wasn't designed as a night fighter either. The B-24 and Wellington weren't designed for maritime recon or all the other roles they were crowbarred into. The war threw up roles that had not been previously considered, one of those was bomber escort.

 

[Shortround6]

The Mustang does have a competitor for the best escort fighter, one that was designed to be an escort fighter from the beginning, the Yak series of fighters. Not designed to escort heavy bombers, but attack aircraft.

In which case just about every major air force had escort fighters. P-39s and P-40s were intended to escort A-20s and/or A-24s. French fighters were intended to escort French Attack aircraft the 109 was designed to escort Ju -87s and so on. Any nation with attack aircraft expected their fighters to escort said attack aircraft.

 

[PAT303]

====================================

Göring in long rant about how he cant even bomb Glasgow precedes this:
Galland replies immdiatey after:

Galland:
"I must say, in a Mustang - thats how you can do it."
ORIGINAL: (In einer Mustang! - muss man, dann auch sagen.)

Erhard Milch:
"The Mustang is in another class altogether"
ORIGINAL: (Der Mustang liegt in einer anderen Klasse.)
====================================

RLM stenographic records, 23rd May 1944, 11am.
(35mm microfilm from IWM London, Vol 64, Frame 6965)

After the war Galland also said he would have counted the P51 by hitting them as early as possible forcing them to drop their tanks, which did actually happen on the first escort missions. Don't get me wrong, I believe the P 51 was the best escort fighter of the war, what I don't believe is all the hype around it defeating the Luftwaffe, it delivered the coupe de gras, nothing more.

 

[pbehn]

After the war Galland also said he would have counted the P51 by hitting them as early as possible forcing them to drop their tanks, which did actually happen on the first escort missions. Don't get me wrong, I believe the P 51 was the best escort fighter of the war, what I don't believe is all the hype around it defeating the Luftwaffe, it delivered the coupe de gras, nothing more.

That is the obvious thing to do if you have the aircraft to do it. The Luftwaffe didn't have the planes or pilots to execute that strategy, to meet all attacks with similar numbers all around the air space Germany controlled would need thousands of fighters and pilots and all the other "stuff".

 

[Deleted member 68059]

After the war Galland also said he would have counted the P51 by hitting them as early as possible forcing them to drop their tanks, which did actually happen on the first escort missions. Don't get me wrong, I believe the P 51 was the best escort fighter of the war, what I don't believe is all the hype around it defeating the Luftwaffe, it delivered the coupe de gras, nothing more.

What gets me is when you spend 20minuites digging through microfilm, to provide an ACTUAL wartime spoken word quote about a plane, from someone there at the time, and you post it, and the response is "hype".