cheddar cheese
Major General
Exactly, they were always going to be compromised in their design, it had to have some airliner aspects in the first place...
Wellington vs Ju88 over Atlantic
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
but they still could've factored in the strength it'd need for military use.........
Maybe they thought they had but when it was finally tested as a military aircraft they found it was too weak and underpowered etc...the lancaster kicks ass said:
Glider
Captain
We can debate the pros and cons over the Germans using the Fw200 as a bomber. However they were desperately short of transport planes and I will never work out why they didn build as many of these as they could. it was everything the Ju52 wasn't, Modern, fast, had a range and a payload. The Ju52 had a role certainly but they were crying out for planes such as the Fw200
I agree the Fw-200 would have made a fine transport however its main role as a Maritime Patrol aircraft was done very well. She even sank a good number of ships in that role.
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- #26
During one of the first briefings before flight over Atlantic, an intelligence officer memorably "elaborated" to the Poles, the situation there:
"Our ships full goodies like food, troops and munitions cross the Atlantic. Against these ships, the enemy sends out U-boats. They are full of bad stuff. Against these U-boats we send out our Wellingtons and Sunderlands. Against these Wellingtons and Sunderlands, Hun sends out Junkers 88s and Messerschmitt 110s. Against these Ju-88s and Me-110s we send out Beaufighters and Mosquitoes. Against these Beaufighters and Mosquitoes the enemy send out Focke-Wulfs. Against these Focke-Wulfs we're going to send out Tempests or Mustangs. That's it. Now you know what to look for and what to avoid."
"Our ships full goodies like food, troops and munitions cross the Atlantic. Against these ships, the enemy sends out U-boats. They are full of bad stuff. Against these U-boats we send out our Wellingtons and Sunderlands. Against these Wellingtons and Sunderlands, Hun sends out Junkers 88s and Messerschmitt 110s. Against these Ju-88s and Me-110s we send out Beaufighters and Mosquitoes. Against these Beaufighters and Mosquitoes the enemy send out Focke-Wulfs. Against these Focke-Wulfs we're going to send out Tempests or Mustangs. That's it. Now you know what to look for and what to avoid."
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
you gotta love the beaufighter though, it could proberly rip the Fw-200 to shreads in just a couple of bursts i agree though the -200 was a good maritime recon plane where she's unlikely to meet much opposition, but i don't think she'd cut it as a heavy bomber over england..........
I agree, the Fw-200 was too vulnerable and the structure too week. The Germans best bet was to design an outright bomber for the job. If they had started the Me-264 program sooner I think she would have been fine for the job.
In the case of the He-111, it was first shown as a commercial airliner, but I think it was intended to be a bomber from the start. The Fw-200, on the other had, was designed as a commercial airliner, and later pressed into service as a maritime patrol aircraft, simply because it was about the only aircraft Germany produced at the time that had sufficient range for patrol duty. I think had the He-117 been given 4 separate engines at the start the Luftwaffe may have had a good long range bomber and maritime patrol aircraft.
Are you talking about the He-177? It may have, had they started the program sooner but for the Germany by late 1943, there really was no more point to having a large bomber.
But certainly not the He-177. The Ju-390 or the He-274 or He-277 maybe.
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- #33
the lancaster kicks ass said:
Unusual luck for meeting enemy's aircraft over the seas had pilot F/Sgt Bakanacz (304 Squadron ). When on September 24, nine Polish Wellingtons patrolled their sector; his crew was attacked by two Ju-88s. Together with his commander F/O Morawski they outmaneuvered the attackers and the gunners battered them. Two weeks later Bankacz was in a strange skirmish with a four-engine Focke Wulf 200 of the notorious "Condor" unit. The encounter took place some 15 miles north of the Spanish coast. Gunner Sgt Kubacik exchanged few scratches with the Germans and the Poles disengaged.
A lively discussion after an encounter with FW200. In a middle witout a hat is W/Cdr Pronaszko
Attachments
Wow that would be actually interesting to see some video footage of it.
loomaluftwaffe
Tech Sergeant
- 1,840
- Dec 20, 2005
u can probably blow an FW200 like a G4M.
why wasnt the bomb bay mounted in a strengthened fuselage and put uprated engines in it?
anyone have info on the Ju290B? heavy armament like a Ju290 but with a heavy bombload, for heavy bombing, of big cities,
why wasnt the bomb bay mounted in a strengthened fuselage and put uprated engines in it?
anyone have info on the Ju290B? heavy armament like a Ju290 but with a heavy bombload, for heavy bombing, of big cities,
Here some for you:
"The combat models
The first combat model was the Ju 290A-2. This was basically a Ju 290A-1 with FuG 200 Hohentwiel search radar. The Hohentwiel radar could detect a convoy at a distance of about 100km. The Trapoklappe was retained. The Ju 290A-3 was almost identical, but had a Focke-Wulf gun turret with a lower profile. The A-4 model had an additional dorsal gun turret, further aft. On 15 October 1943 Fernaufklaringsgruppe 5 (FAGr.5) began operations from Mont-de-Marsan, in France. They replaced the Fw 200C in its role of gatherer of information for the U-boats. After two A-2s, three A-3s, and five A-4s, it received the first A-5.
The A-5 was a fully operational combat aircraft, and appeared in the spring of 1944. It had protected fuel tanks, armour plating for the crew positions, and redesigned beam gun positions. Also, all but one of the 13mm MG131 guns were replaced by 15mm MG151 cannon, with a difference in firepower much larger than the small increase in calibre suggests. The crew was increased for seven to nine. The Ju 290A-5 was well armed, could absorb damage and did not have the structural weaknesses of the Fw 200C. This was a good replacement for the Condor, but only 11 were completed.
And three Ju 290A-5s were retracted from FAGr.5 after delivery. All their armament was removed, and additional fuel tanks installed. They made a non-stop trip to Manchuria, and a similar flight back, to exchange documents and strategic materials with the Japanese. After the loss of the Atlantic coast, the Ju 290s were all used as transports. Some went to the famous KG200, that seems to have used the bombers to drop agents and supplies behind the Allied lines.
The single A-6 was built as a personal transport for Hitler, originally with a pressure cabin but later this was abandoned and a 40-seat interior was installed. In April 1945 it flew to Spain, where it was used for some years.
Despite an order for 25 of them, Junkers completed only a few A-7s, which had an additional MG151 in a bulbous, glazed nose and was equipped to carry guided weapons. The A-8 had again increased armament, but only three or four were completed. The final version, Ju 290A-9, had reduced armament but more fuel, so that range could be increased to 8300km. The production programme was hit when the Red Army occupied the factories near Prague, but in October 1944 the programme was completely terminated: Germany could no longer afford to build the Ju 290. It needed to concentrate all resources on just a few types. The Ju 290B, C, D and E models never left the drawing board. "
http://uboat.net/technical/ju290.htm
JU-290
Type: Long Range Transport and Reconnaissance Bomber
Origin: Junkers Flugzeug und Motorenwerke (See comments)
Models: Ju 290A-1 to A-8 and B-1, B-2 and C
First Flight (rebuilt Ju90V5): Early 1939
First Flight (production Ju 290A-0): October 1942
Service Delivery: N/A
Final Delivery: October 1944
Engine:
Ju 290A
Model: BMW 801D
Type: 14-Cylinder Radial
Number: Four
Horsepower: 1,700hp
Ju 290B
Model: BMW 801E
Type: 14-Cylinder Radial
Number: Four
Horsepower: 1,970hp
Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
Dimensions:
Wing span: 42.00m (137 ft. 9½ in.)
Length: 92 ft 1 in. to 97 ft 9 in.
Length (Ju 290A-5): 28.64m (93 ft. 11½ in.)
Height: 6.83m (22 ft. 4¾ in.)
Wing Surface Area: 203.60m² (2,191.60 sq. ft.)
Weights:
Empty: N/A
Maximum (Ju 290A-5): 44,970kg (99,141 lbs.)
Maximum (Ju 290A-7): 45,400kg (101,413 lbs.)
Maximum (Ju 290B-2): 50,500kg (111,332 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 440km/h (273 mph)
Initial climb: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A
Range: 3,700 Miles (5950 km)
Range (Ju 290B-2): 4,970 Miles (8000 km)
Armament:
Ju 290A-2:
Five 20mm MG 151
Six 13mm MG 131
Ju 290A-8:
Ten 20mm MG 151
One (or Three) 13mm MG 131
Bomb/Missile Load:
N/A
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ju290.html
"The combat models
The first combat model was the Ju 290A-2. This was basically a Ju 290A-1 with FuG 200 Hohentwiel search radar. The Hohentwiel radar could detect a convoy at a distance of about 100km. The Trapoklappe was retained. The Ju 290A-3 was almost identical, but had a Focke-Wulf gun turret with a lower profile. The A-4 model had an additional dorsal gun turret, further aft. On 15 October 1943 Fernaufklaringsgruppe 5 (FAGr.5) began operations from Mont-de-Marsan, in France. They replaced the Fw 200C in its role of gatherer of information for the U-boats. After two A-2s, three A-3s, and five A-4s, it received the first A-5.
The A-5 was a fully operational combat aircraft, and appeared in the spring of 1944. It had protected fuel tanks, armour plating for the crew positions, and redesigned beam gun positions. Also, all but one of the 13mm MG131 guns were replaced by 15mm MG151 cannon, with a difference in firepower much larger than the small increase in calibre suggests. The crew was increased for seven to nine. The Ju 290A-5 was well armed, could absorb damage and did not have the structural weaknesses of the Fw 200C. This was a good replacement for the Condor, but only 11 were completed.
And three Ju 290A-5s were retracted from FAGr.5 after delivery. All their armament was removed, and additional fuel tanks installed. They made a non-stop trip to Manchuria, and a similar flight back, to exchange documents and strategic materials with the Japanese. After the loss of the Atlantic coast, the Ju 290s were all used as transports. Some went to the famous KG200, that seems to have used the bombers to drop agents and supplies behind the Allied lines.
The single A-6 was built as a personal transport for Hitler, originally with a pressure cabin but later this was abandoned and a 40-seat interior was installed. In April 1945 it flew to Spain, where it was used for some years.
Despite an order for 25 of them, Junkers completed only a few A-7s, which had an additional MG151 in a bulbous, glazed nose and was equipped to carry guided weapons. The A-8 had again increased armament, but only three or four were completed. The final version, Ju 290A-9, had reduced armament but more fuel, so that range could be increased to 8300km. The production programme was hit when the Red Army occupied the factories near Prague, but in October 1944 the programme was completely terminated: Germany could no longer afford to build the Ju 290. It needed to concentrate all resources on just a few types. The Ju 290B, C, D and E models never left the drawing board. "
http://uboat.net/technical/ju290.htm
JU-290
Type: Long Range Transport and Reconnaissance Bomber
Origin: Junkers Flugzeug und Motorenwerke (See comments)
Models: Ju 290A-1 to A-8 and B-1, B-2 and C
First Flight (rebuilt Ju90V5): Early 1939
First Flight (production Ju 290A-0): October 1942
Service Delivery: N/A
Final Delivery: October 1944
Engine:
Ju 290A
Model: BMW 801D
Type: 14-Cylinder Radial
Number: Four
Horsepower: 1,700hp
Ju 290B
Model: BMW 801E
Type: 14-Cylinder Radial
Number: Four
Horsepower: 1,970hp
Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
Dimensions:
Wing span: 42.00m (137 ft. 9½ in.)
Length: 92 ft 1 in. to 97 ft 9 in.
Length (Ju 290A-5): 28.64m (93 ft. 11½ in.)
Height: 6.83m (22 ft. 4¾ in.)
Wing Surface Area: 203.60m² (2,191.60 sq. ft.)
Weights:
Empty: N/A
Maximum (Ju 290A-5): 44,970kg (99,141 lbs.)
Maximum (Ju 290A-7): 45,400kg (101,413 lbs.)
Maximum (Ju 290B-2): 50,500kg (111,332 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 440km/h (273 mph)
Initial climb: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A
Range: 3,700 Miles (5950 km)
Range (Ju 290B-2): 4,970 Miles (8000 km)
Armament:
Ju 290A-2:
Five 20mm MG 151
Six 13mm MG 131
Ju 290A-8:
Ten 20mm MG 151
One (or Three) 13mm MG 131
Bomb/Missile Load:
N/A
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ju290.html
I might be wrong but the Ju-290 that flew to Spain in 1945 actually crashed and was not used, it sat there in a field for many years until it was finally sold to Spain. I have pictures of it in a book here.
book1182
Airman
Wellington!!!!!!!!!!!
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
he wasn't really asking which you think would win, it was about an encounter that took place.........
LOL
