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In General the answer to the first part is yes. To the second part is a bit harder. The R-1830 2 stage was the first to fly (by several years) and had some problems. It apparently wasn't all that efficient. Not surprising considering the efficiency of single stage superchargers of the time (1938-39-40). Supercharger efficiency was, like many other technologies, constantly evolving during WWII. While some designs remained frozen for production reasons, other engines made jumps as new models were introduced. Comparing some late 1944/early 45 superchargers to 1939-40 superchargers are going to show some major changes in efficiency and pressure ratios.So it would seem the engines with the aux blowers (2-stage supercharging), and the planes powered by them, would have had high altitude advantages over engines and planes without aux blowers (single-stage supercharging.) And perhaps have the potential to participate in high altitude operations in ETO.
AFAIK, V-1710 did not have an aux blower and Merlin only installed a 2nd stage later on, although I don't think R/R called it an aux blower.
Shortround6 said:We know that the P-47 had about 3/4 the profile drag of a Corsair but we may not know the induced drag or parasitic drag.
Renrich said:Dav, would not there be slight drag difference because of no tail hook and no gap where the wind fold was?
It would be interesting to know why, cg problems, like the P-51?Shortround6 said:Rear tanks were apparently tried and quickly dropped from consideration.
I agree with this. Raising the internal fuel to 370 gallons did not seem to be a big problem, though.Asking for P-47N fuel capacity and range in 1940-42 was probably too much for the early 2000hp engines. Not only did engine power go up but runway lengths were getting longer all the time. Long range aircraft don't do any good if they can't get of the ground with a full load of fuel.
renrich said:The wing tanks did not have to be protected as the Corsair used them first and then purged the tanks with CO2, just as the P51 did, I think.
The F4U seems to be more overall aerodynamically efficient. SL max speed for the P-47C running 2000 horses was about 335 mph whereas with the same power output, the F4U-1 hit about 350 mph. I am not sure if the F4U is just cleaner or if its power is being more efficiently applied. Now the F4U-1 is about 1000 lbs less, about 10%, than P-47, but that should have only lead to a few mph difference.
From the data I have, I could not discern top speed difference between the F4U-1D and the FG-1D. I do not think the drag difference would be of significance. The difference between the P-51B and the P-51D, which had a much larger cockpit footprint, was only a few mph at SL and top speed. Certainly, at altitude, form drag is less an impact to aircraft performance due to reduced air density.
It would be interesting to know why, cg problems, like the P-51?
I agree with this. Raising the internal fuel to 370 gallons did not seem to be a big problem, though.
Dean says the aft P-51 tank was "protected". I don't know what this means whether it just had CO2 or whether it was protected like the main tanks. Other references failed to shed light.
Now for the question of increasing the range of the P-47 for escort duty, I do think it would not have been a big deal to increase internal fuel tanks to 370 and provide adequate drop tanks. Using the P-47 Tactical Planning Characteristics and Performance Chart, I did a bit of analysis very similar to Shortround6 based on a P-47C with enlarged main tank of 270 gallons and a 100 gallon aux tank for a total of 370 gallons internal. In addition, external drop tanks were carried sufficient enough to allow 600 mile cruise, say 300 gallons at max continuous cruise power and 260 mph at 25k ft. Tanks are jettisoned approaching target and the P-47 has full internal fuel load. The question is how much combat fuel do I have and still make it home. Now, the chart shows that at max continuous cruise power at 25k and 260 mph, 281 gallons would be consumed, minus 65 gallons reserve and landing, leaving only 24 gallons for battle, not enough. However at 10k and 220 mph, only 220 gallons are consumed going home, leaving a healthy 85 gallons! It is interesting to note that the chart shows that the P-47 is more efficient at 25k than at 10k. So, the P-47 could return at 25k which would be comfortable. 220 mph True at 25k is slow Indicated, 150 mph, but should be well above stall. It should work fine
Now I think the F4U performance is similar to the P-47 but maybe a bit more efficient and lighter. While carrying less fuel, it should be in the same ball park as the above P-47 when operating in the same environment.
I am ignoring bullet holes, after all, one bullet hole through a P-51 cooling system does him in and we know it was an effective escort fighter.
Performance wise, both aircraft would be effective against 1943 – late 1944 German fighters at the altitudes required for bomber protection 20-25k ft. The P-47 had an advantage in that it controlled the altitude above the bombers, a big advantage for an escort I would think. The F4U could effectively take the fight down to the surface.
In comparison, the P-51, would use only 108 gallons to go home minus the 65 gallon reserve and landing and that would leave 96 gallons to fight, and 96 gallons in a Merlin powered P-51 is a whole lot more than 85 gallons in a R-2800 powered aircraft. And the P-51 could advantageously take the fight to the enemy from 30k to SL. It just wasn't around earlier, another error by the AAF?
I think that with a little up-front thought, the AAF could have fielded a reasonably capable escort fighter much earlier by providing extra internal fuel to the P-47 and provided a lot of help to those bomber crews. In any event, they could have expanded their umbrella coverage.
I agree with this. Raising the internal fuel to 370 gallons did not seem to be a big problem, though.
Now for the question of increasing the range of the P-47 for escort duty, I do think it would not have been a big deal to increase internal fuel tanks to 370 and provide adequate drop tanks.
I think that with a little up-front thought, the AAF could have fielded a reasonably capable escort fighter much earlier by providing extra internal fuel to the P-47 and provided a lot of help to those bomber crews. In any event, they could have expanded their umbrella coverage.
The Start of this thread was "What if the USAAC, recognizing the historically expeditionary nature of the US military, and the need to reach out to the enemy rather that wait for the enemy to come to you, had specified "P-51 like" ranges in fighters such as the P-40 and P-47?"
Now maybe I misinterpreted it But I took that to mean 'what if the USAAC had specified the longer range either at the beginning of the P-47 development or in the earliest stages of the P-40s development'. Changing specification too much in the middle of production leads to changes in tooling and lost production that many countries were hesitant to do.
I do not have the full specifications or requirements that the P-47 was designed to. These would include not only top speed, ceiling, desired climb rate or time to altitude, range and armament but things like landing speed and field length "G" loading strength and landing "G" load requirements among others. Some of this can be traded back and forth on paper while the plane is in the proposal stage before contracts are signed with performance guarantees. Curtiss lost over $14,000 in penalties on the XP-46 contract because the prototype would not perform up to contract specifications. The Army may relax some of these requirements once a plane is in service, like adding the rear fuselage tanks to the P-51, rather than call for a new design, but while a plane is still on paper or in prototype trials they are going to want it to meet the specifications (or mutually agreed modifications).
Adding hundreds of pounds of tanks and fuel, even if you can find room, will impact not only field length and climb, but those stress requirements.
If we are talking about specifying the extra range/fuel from the beginning, I am pointing out that the power plant (engine and propeller) available or planned was not capable of the performance not only of the real the P-47N engine and propeller of late 1944/45 but even of the field modified "D"s of the end of 1943.
Once again for an Idea of the performance "hit" the plane would take see this chart: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47TOCL.gif
Look at the climb rates for the different weights. Please look at the notes, like this is for O degrees Celsius and add 10% to climb times for each 10 degrees above O degrees. Also note that after 5 minutes at military power the engine is throttled back to "normal" power which is 1625hp instead of 2000hp so a lot of the climb figures are not true combat figures but you can still get an idea of the performance "hit" of the extra weight.
Drop tanks helped designers out because they could increase range while not hurting performance at short range like a bigger airframe/ heavier internal tanks would. But the planes "Combat radius" is limited to how far the plane can fly after dropping the tanks, engaging in combat and then flying home with enough reserves to handle weather conditions and minor navigation errors.
Please note that the later P-47Ds had 15-25% more power available than the "B" and "C" versions to handle not only the drop tanks but the change from 305 to 370 gals of internal fuel. P-47s sometimes used their water injection for take-off while carrying heavy loads from short airstrips in hot conditions.
When building fighter aircraft it helps if the "balance" is not tipped too far to one side or the other. A long range fighter for escort use is great, as long as it can actually fight once it gets there or can fight near it's own home base if the situation changes.