What If: Mosquitos vs Oil Targets

[wuzak]

Attack with one squadron at a time and the 50 or so light flak weapons will slaughter them 12 aircraft at at time.

Maybe if the Mossies loitered over the flak positions....

 

[pbfoot]

A mass attack can overload enemy air defenses. Attack with one squadron at a time and the 50 or so light flak weapons will slaughter them 12 aircraft at at time.

Having been subject to many airfield attacks albeit LW F4's I betcha you would be hardpressed to hit one out of 12 . When coordinated you have 10 or so aircraft cross the airfield at the same time from different directions at lo altitude you are lucky to see more then 1 aircxraft

 

[Edgar Brooks]

A mass attack can overload enemy air defenses. .

Like Schweinfurt?

Attack with one squadron at a time and the 50 or so light flak weapons will slaughter them 12 aircraft at at time

There is no record of a whole squadron, ever, being lost in a single raid (unless you believe that "633 Squadron" is a true story.)
Remember that, after initial heavy losses, the purely bomber Mosquitoes, since they had no defensive armament, were used for night attacks, and 150 light weapons would find it difficult to track them, in the dark, at 300+ mph.
Mosquitoes were renowned for delivering 4000lb (more than the B17's load to the same target) "cookies" to Berlin twice in a night, and even that heavily-defended target was referred to as "the milk run."

 

[Shortround6]

Mosquitoes were renowned for delivering 4000lb (more than the B17's load to the same target) "cookies" to Berlin twice in a night, and even that heavily-defended target was referred to as "the milk run."

Can we please put this myth to rest. B-17s routinely carried 5000lbs of HE bombs to Berlin even if only once a day. The 4000lb number seems to come from averaging the weight of of bombers carrying the bulkier incendiary bombs which, because of the size of the B-17s bomb bay and the size of the US incendiary bombs meant that just over 3000lbs of incendiary bombs could be carried.

 

[mhuxt]

I think that myth stems from the memoirs of Don Bennett, CO (AOC?) of 8 Group, who told an American correspondent that the Mossies she was watching taking off were bound for Berlin with 4,000 lb bomb loads, same as the B-17s which she'd seen earlier.

As the quintessential Numbers Man, Bennett really should have known better.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

I think that myth stems from the memoirs of Don Bennett, CO (AOC?) of 8 Group, who told an American correspondent that the Mossies she was watching taking off were bound for Berlin with 4,000 lb bomb loads, same as the B-17s which she'd seen earlier.
As the quintessential Numbers Man, Bennett really should have known better.

Actually, it also comes from his direct words, at a meeting at the RAF Museum in 1977, when he said that the conversation went:-
"Where are they going?"
"To Berlin"
"What can those little things carry?"
"A 4,000lb bomb."
But, that's what the B-17 carries, isn't it?"
"Not to Berlin; with the extra fuel load, they can only manage 3,200lb."
"Geez, I'd better not tell the folks back home; they think the B-17's winning the war."

 

[mhuxt]

Actually, it also comes from his direct words, at a meeting at the RAF Museum in 1977, when he said that the conversation went:-
"Where are they going?"
"To Berlin"
"What can those little things carry?"
"A 4,000lb bomb."
But, that's what the B-17 carries, isn't it?"
"Not to Berlin; with the extra fuel load, they can only manage 3,200lb."
"Geez, I'd better not tell the folks back home; they think the B-17's winning the war."

He certainly included the tale in his autobiography. Where he got the figure from, I don't know, I've never found anything to back it up.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

He certainly included the tale in his autobiography. Where he got the figure from, I don't know, I've never found anything to back it up.

That's just it; someone must have given him those figures, since he was unlikely to have plucked them from thin air. If the reporter had found that he'd lied to her, the repercussions would have been massive.

 

[Milosh]

"Not to Berlin; with the extra fuel load, they can only manage 3,200lb."

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 119
8 March 1944
Target: V.K.F. Ball Bearing Works, Berlin (Erkner) Germany
Crews Dispatched: 22
Crews Lost: Lt. L.B. McGrath, 10 POWs
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 50 minutes
Bomb Load: 8 x 500 lb Incendiaries (M17) / 12 x 100 G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 26,800 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,895 rounds

That is 5200lb of bombs.

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 120
9 March 1944
City Area, Berlin, Germany (PFF)
Crews Dispatched: 19
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 24,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 730 rounds

That is 5000lb of bombs.

 

[Shortround6]

The list of missions flown by the 303rd bomb group is available on line with combat reports that include bomb loads.

 

[wuzak]

"Not to Berlin; with the extra fuel load, they can only manage 3,200lb."

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 119
8 March 1944
Target: V.K.F. Ball Bearing Works, Berlin (Erkner) Germany
Crews Dispatched: 22
Crews Lost: Lt. L.B. McGrath, 10 POWs
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 50 minutes
Bomb Load: 8 x 500 lb Incendiaries (M17) / 12 x 100 G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 26,800 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,895 rounds

That is 5200lb of bombs.

I think that is an either/or, not combined load.

 

[mhuxt]

Either way, it's more than 4k, and, despite looking, I've never seen any reports of less than that amount being carried to Berlin by the Forts.

 

[wuzak]

Either way, it's more than 4k, and, despite looking, I've never seen any reports of less than that amount being carried to Berlin by the Forts.

Does show how the average could be lower.

 

[Vincenzo]

I think that is an either/or, not combined load.

is a combined load

 

[wuzak]

is a combined load

Ok.

 

[wuzak]

Hypothetically....

Say the 8th AF had 200 B-17s to send on a mission, and the RAF 200 Mossies.

At the start of the mission the B-17s would climb to altitude and form up over southern England. I understand that this could take an hour or so, and that the Germans could see the bombers on radar.

While this is happening the RAF sends its Mossies off at low level, those forming up on the way to Germany. These may get picked up early too - suppose they are.

Do the Luftwaffe now have to make a choice - attack the 200 Mossies flying in low at 300mph, or wait for the B-17s? Or will they have enough time to attack the Mossies and the B-17s?

I suppose that they could attack the Mossies on the way to target and the B-17s on their way home - on deep penetration 8th AF missions teh LW could attack the formation in both directions.

If the LW leaves the Mossies alone and attack the B-17s, could the RAF and USAAF have the B-17s simply form up over England and start to head to Europe as a decoy? Of course this can't be done all the time, at least some of the attacks need to be real.

At some stage the LW will figure that the B-17s forming up is a decoy, so will attack the Mossies. That should help the B-17s, at least for part of the journey.

 

[Vincenzo]

we have some docs that show mosquitoes load 4000 lbs bomb commonly bombing Berlin?

 

[wuzak]

we have some docs that show mosquitoes load 4000 lbs bomb commonly bombing Berlin?

In 1944 the Mosquitoes of 139 was equipped with H2S during that year the squadron visited a long list of the most famous targets in Germany Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne, Mannheim, Hanover, Duisberg and many others. 4,000-lb "cookies" were dropped on these targets in addition to T.I.'s (target indicators) to guide the main force heavies.
During 20th/21st February to 27th/28th March inclusive, the squadron made a series of 36 consecutive night attacks on Berlin. On 2nd/3rd May, 1945, came the last of the squadron's wartime operations, an attack by 14 Mosquitoes (including Canadian built Mk. XXs) on Kiel.

139 (Jamaica) Squadron Pathfinders


My undertsnading is that most of teh Mosquitos involved in the February-March 1944 missions to Berlin carried the 4000lb cookie. But I have no confirmation of that.

The squadron was formed at Graveley, Huntingdonshire, on 1st January 1944. It was equipped with Mosquito light bombers and became part of the force of fast, high-flying night raiders- the Light Night Striking Force of No 8 (PFF) Group. The Light Night Striking Force made a name for itself with its regular journeys to Berlin, hitting the German capital again and again with 4,000lb. "cookie" bombs.

Squadron Leader SD Watts, a New Zealander, who later became the squadron's CO, flew the first Mosquito to drop a 4,000lb. bomb on Germany.1 No 692 also gained the distinction of being the first Mosquito squadron to execute a minelaying operation.2 On New Year's Day 1945, the squadron undertook a tunnel-busting operation against the vital German lines of supply to the Ardennes offensive. The attacks were made at heights of 250 feet or less and in such a way that the 4,000lb. bombs were thrown into the mouths of the tunnels. One pilot flew down a cutting at a height of 100 feet and in a width space of only three Mosquito wing spans to throw his bomb into the tunnel mouth. The bomb travelled down the tunnel before exploding, belching out dirt and smoke from the opposite end.

RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary