What If...?

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Ive never heard of that anywear, sorry. But here is a general history on the GZ, but yes she was doomed from the beginning because of the fight between Goering and Raeder. And I do agree the ship would not have stood a chance but a list of 15 degrees permanantly I can not believe, sorry. It is not that I dont believe you, I have just never seen or heard it anywhere, I may be wrong though.

Graf Zeppelin was an aircraft carrier of the Kriegsmarine, named in honor of Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin. She was Germany's only aircraft carrier during World War II. Her construction was ordered on 16 November 1935, and her keel was laid down 28 December 1936 by Deutsche Werke of Kiel. She was launched on 8 December 1938, but was never completed, never commissioned, and never saw action.

In 1935, Adolf Hitler announced that Germany would construct aircraft carriers to strengthen the Kriegsmarine. The keels of two were laid down the next year. Two years later, Grand Admiral Erich Raeder presented an ambitious shipbuilding program called the Z Plan, in which four carriers were to be built by 1945. In 1939, he revised the plan, reducing the number to be built to two.

The German Navy has always maintained a policy of not assigning a name to a ship until she is launched. The first German carrier, laid down as "Carrier A," was named Graf Zeppelin when launched in 1938. The second carrier bore only the title "Carrier B," since she was never launched. Various names, including Peter Strasser and Deutschland, were rumored, but no official decision was ever made.

A review of the Führer's conferences on matters dealing with the German Navy, the minutes of which were captured after the fall of the Third Reich, reveals Hitler's vacillating interest in the carriers. Marshall Hermann Göring, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, was resentful of any incursion on his authority as head of the country's air power and he frustrated Raeder at every opportunity. Within his own service, Raeder found opposition in Admiral Karl Dönitz, a submariner.

By May 1941, the strain on manpower and raw materials was being felt in Germany. Raeder was still optimistic, however, and informed Hitler that Graf Zeppelin, then about 85 per cent complete, would be completed in about a year and that another year would be required for sea trials and flight training.

Though Hitler continued to assure Raeder that the carriers would be built, the Admiral's war with Göring had no truce and became increasingly bitter. Göring showed his contempt for the naval air arm by informing Hitler and Raeder that the aircraft ordered for Graf Zeppelin could not be available until the end of 1944. Göring's delaying tactics worked.

Construction on the carriers had been fitful from the start. "Carrier B" was abandoned in 1940 and broken up. Manpower and material shortages plagued the Graf Zeppelin.

Prodded by Raeder, Hitler ordered Göring to produce aircraft for the carrier and under this pressure, the air marshall offered redesigned versions of the Junkers Ju 87B and the Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3, which were at that time being phased out of the Luftwaffe first-line squadrons. Raeder was unhappy, but he had to accept them or none at all. This forced another delay in the construction of the carrier: the flight deck installations had to be changed.

By 1943, Hitler had become disenchanted with his Navy. Raeder was relieved at his own request and Dönitz, the submarine admiral, took the top naval post. Work on Graf Zeppelin stopped completely.

As the end of World War II neared, Graf Zeppelin was scuttled in shallow water at Szczecin (known to the Germans as Stettin) on 25 April 1945, just before the Red Army captured the city. After Germany's surrender, though, her history and fate is unclear. According to the terms of the Allied Tripartite Commission, a "Category C" ship (damaged or scuttled) should have been destroyed or sunk in deep water by 15 August 1946. Instead, the Russians decided to repair the damaged ship. It was refloated in March, 1946. The last known photo of the carrier shows it leaving Świnoujście (in German Swinemunde) on 7 April 1947 (see [1] (http://www.fds.px.pl/foto/big/1099826239.jpg)). The photo appears to show the carrier deck loaded with various containers, boxes and construction elements, hence the supposition that it was probably used to carry looted factory equipment from Poland and Germany to the Soviet Union.

For many years no other information about the ship's fate was available. There was some speculation that it was very unlikely that the hulk made it to Leningrad, as it was argued that the arrival of such a large and unusual vessel would have been noticed by Western intelligence services. This assumption seemed to imply that the hulk was lost at sea during transfer between Świnoujście and Leningrad. One account concluded that she struck a mine north of Rügen on 15 August 1947, but Rügen, west of Świnoujście, is not on the sailing route to Leningrad. Further north, in the Gulf of Finland, a heavily-mined area difficult for Western observers to monitor, seemed more likely.

After the opening of the Soviet archives, new light was shed on the mystery. It appears that the carrier was towed to Leningrad. There, after unloading, it was designated as "PO-101" (Floating Base Number 101), The Russians hoped that the carrier could be repaired in Leningrad's shipyards (those in Szczecin were destroyed). When this proved impractical, the ship was towed out to sea, back to the Świnoujście area. There, on 16 August 1947, it was used as a practice target for Soviet ships and aircraft. Allegedly, the Soviets installed aerial bombs on the flight deck, in hangars and even inside the funnels (to simulate a load of combat munitions), and then dropped bombs from aircraft, fired shells, and shot torpedoes into her. This assault would both comply with the Tripartite mandate (albeit late) and provide the Soviets with experience in sinking an aircraft carrier. After being hit by 24 bombs and projectiles, the ship did not sink and had to be finished off by torpedoes. The wreck of the carrier has never been located.

Displacement: 23,000 tons
Length: 920 feet
Beam: 88 feet
Power Plant: geared turbines, four screws (unusual for Germany, which preferred triple screws)
Speed: 33.8 knots
Aircraft Complement: 42 Messerschmitt Me 109T fighters and Junkers Ju 87C dive bombers
 
My mistake, the list was more like 4.5degrees. It was countered when work restarted on her in 43-44 by the addition of bulges and more ballast.
 
A possible list (never heard about that before, too) would be a minor problem, since there was pretty much possibilitie to counterlist in such a big hull. A captain for such a ship would be the smallest problem. The main problem would be both, airplanes and operations as pointed out above by R Leonard. And a single carrier would be of very limited worth for Kriegsmarine (maybe except for the use as a weapon of beeing as disscussed above). The few Bf-109 T and Fieseler-bomber were clearly obsolete in 1942. I was wondering why they never tried to modify the Fw-190 A for a carrier. It could do all possible carrierplane jobs: fighter, bomber, torpedo carrier and recon.
 
Well, it is a large "what if", agreed. The first Fw-190 units got operational in mid 1941, in 1942 most fighter units in france operated with the Fw-190 A. It was not until 1943 OKL did realize that there was no possibility to bring GZ into service.
 
I think had the GZ become operational and lasted they would have adapted the 190A until they came up with an aircraft designed solely for the purpose of being used on a AC.
 
i must say i'd be interested to hear your ideas about the GZ's role in the home defence role.........
 
I must say that adapting FW190 to a carrier-based fighter would be a good idea, better than Bf 109, which had very narrow undercarriage. Nevertheless GZ would rather be useless till this time.
 
I agree she never would have even made it to the Home defense role. Even if she had what would she have done against the allies lets say on D-Day? Nothing, she would have been destroyed.
 
For this question I wuold like to move on for late 1944/1945. A possible role on DDay is speculation only. (the KM did not had any heavy surface vessels at France) If GZ could make it from Norway back to the Baltic Sea (like Hipper and Lutzow) it could be of importance for the home defense. Refitted with (hypothetical) Fw-190 T it could join the largest Kriegsmarine operation of the war. From early 1945 on they evacuated more than 5 million civilians and military because of the soviet advance. Succesfully shore bombardments by Prinz Eugen, Hipper and Lutzow (historical)as well as additional fighter cover/ air support by GZ (hypothetical) delayed the advance of the soviet forces operating close to the shore. The sinking of Lutzow by soviet air forces would be more difficult if it had proper air cover from GZ or not? The destruction of Hipper by Tall Boys would be more difficult, too. But I don´t doubt that GZ would become the prime target for all allied forces operating on/over tha Baltic...
 
GZ air group was too small to make a difference in your scenario. Further, even with an all fighter air group, it is still so small that a concerted effort by the Russians would probably overwhelm any combat air patrol by shear weight of numbers.

Regards,

Rich
 
R Leonard said:
GZ air group was too small to make a difference in your scenario. Further, even with an all fighter air group, it is still so small that a concerted effort by the Russians would probably overwhelm any combat air patrol by shear weight of numbers.

Regards,

Rich

Okay lets just take this one step further then. If this senerio had played out, then most likely the Bf-109T's would have been swapped out by Fw-109T's, right. Okay now lets say they replaced every aircraft on there with a fighter and put 42 of them on the Carrier and they could have put more in reserve lets say 50 to 100 more Fw-190T's based out of lets say Trondheim or any of the other airfields the Luftwaffe had. They could also have used the Luftwaffe units JG 5 had 4 Gruppen. I. and IV./JG 5 were stationed in Southern Norway, being equipped with the Fw 190A-2s, A-3s and A-4s. I./JG 5 had its bases on Lista, Stavanger-Sola and Forus, Kjevik, and Herdla. IV./JG 5 were distributed on bases around Trondheim also having Bf 109Fs and Fw 190As. It was left up to II. and III. Gruppe to fight the Russians on the Polar Sea Front; at this time they were solely equipped with Bf 109F-4s. Stab, 4./JG 5 and 6./JG 5 were stationed in Alakurtti, 5., 8., and 9./JG 5 were stationed at Kirkenes and 7./JG 5 was to be found at Petsamo. In this case with the amount of Bf-109's and Fw-190's which easily outmatched any Russian fighter that could be put in the air, I think that if the GZ had been placed there she could have made an impact on the homeland defense.
 
Ahh, the basic problem and pitfall with the "what if". If Group A takes Action X must Group B react in their historical context?

So, if the Germans do all these things that you set up for them (what if's let you be somewhat god-like, you know more than the poor little humans you're moving around), what makes you think the Russians wouldn't throw every aviation asset they had against them.

Surely, if you can stack the deck, so can the Russians. Again, there's not enough to protect the GZ and meet all other missions requirements. All the Russians have to do is make you commit one way or the other and then go to your weak side.

What are you going to do about night shipping attacks? Do you have sufficient assets in place to ward off all attacks, every night, night after night? And day attacks? Every day, day after day? In good weather, and especially in bad? And what would be the GZ's fighter direction doctrine? Not a place for makee-learnee. And if the Russians manage to put a couple of bombs through GZ's flight deck, at best, making her unable to carry on flight operations, or at worst, with only a couple of DC mistakes sinking her, what have you accomplished? From the American experience, operating carriers in the face large scale enemy land based air assets meant many carriers with a total operational capability of 1000 to 1500 aircraft. Even then, one, just one, enemy airplane gets though and the day is ruined for a carrier, witness USS Franklin (CV-13). Just a couple of bombs and she was out of the war. Don't even want to get started on suicider's. Would the Russians go to that extreme to get the GZ? Doubt it, but you never know.

So, what are you going to do? put the GZ in an operating environment where she is sure as the sun shines going to get hit. Remember also, the practice of leaving one's carrier or carriers in a place where they are in danger of 24-7 attack for days on end is just bad business. Witness the Okinawa campaign where the longer the US carriers remained on station the more likely they were to get hit. Are you going to devote all your air assets to GZ's protection and ignore all other operational requirements? For how long? Then what are you accomplishing? What are you doing for the grunts on the ground in desperate need of air cover while you're spending your assets defending a carrier that shouldn't be there in the first place. There's no target spread. There's only one target. So when you finally relent and send your fighters to protect your ground forces from enemy aircraft that have been bombing the crap out of them while you play protect the carrier, what target do you think the Russians are going to attack? Just because you can marshal German assets for your what if scenario, don't think that the Russians would go along with their historical program. Anything you can change, they would have changed to meet. They weren't stupid. More importantly, they knew the efficacy of the massed attack against any target deemed worth it and had the assets to do it.

One carrier in a very limited operating area with major and sizeable enemy land based aircraft within striking distance simply is not practical. Would it not be better to place this all fighter airgroup on an airfield somewhere, something that won't sink? I really don't see the point in employing the GZ in such a manner, is it just to say you did? Well, I'm sure the thousands of dead german sailors that would resulted from such an operational decision would have taken great comfort in that.


Rich
 
Good post.
I think, I got your point. I do not say that GZ would turn the wheel or anything else (i did not initiate this szenario, but I participate). The outcome would be the same. But the odds were good in the Baltic in 1945. The soviets had no considerable surface units (i think the Marat only, but Kronstadt and Marat were both in no seaworthy condition at any time later than 1942) and even their subs were only mediocre (one exception: S-13, which succeed in sinking the transports Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben). Not to name the air forces, which were uneffective (they had problems to sink minesweepers) against the Prinz Eugen, Lutzow and Hipper or even against transports (Lutzow was sunken in very late april, at a time when she did not have enough fuel to move, she was to be abandoned, anyway). The soviet air force never worked out a useful ship busting tactic (losses of Il-2 and Tu-2 against KM shipping in the Baltic were huge, even in early 1945). The KM on the other side put all into action, what they had, cruisers, destroyers, pocket battleships, transports, small ships... and they succed in the largest evacuating operation in history. GZ could make some efforts here, either as protection or -more probable- as a huge and fast transport ship. The (hypothetical)Fw-190 could do all carrier jobs, the same plane can bomb targets or provide fighter cover (so all planes were to be used in both roles, freeing some space for additional planes) there is no need for an all interceptor equipped carrier. The main problem belongs to carrier operations, as pointed out above by You. So what would the soviets do? Sub operations and low level bomber attacks (probably in a large scale). More probably: Asking the British for help. Lancaster with Tallboys could deal with the thread, however, it must be remebered that high level bombing on moving ships doesn´t work good with unguided weapons.
 
Good post.
I think, I got your point. I do not say that GZ would turn the wheel or anything else (i did not initiate this szenario, but I participate). The outcome would be the same. But the odds were good in the Baltic in 1945. The soviets had no considerable surface units (i think the Marat only, but Kronstadt and Marat were both in no seaworthy condition at any time later than 1942) and even their subs were only mediocre (one exception: S-13, which succeed in sinking the transports Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben). Not to name the air forces, which were uneffective (they had problems to sink minesweepers) against the Prinz Eugen, Lutzow and Hipper or even against transports (Lutzow was sunken in very late april, at a time when she did not have enough fuel to move, she was to be abandoned, anyway). The soviet air force never worked out a useful ship busting tactic (losses of Il-2 and Tu-2 against KM shipping in the Baltic were huge, even in early 1945). The KM on the other side put all into action, what they had, cruisers, destroyers, pocket battleships, transports, small ships... and they succed in the largest evacuating operation in history. GZ could make some efforts here, either as protection or -more probable- as a huge and fast transport ship. The (hypothetical)Fw-190 could do all carrier jobs, the same plane can bomb targets or provide fighter cover (so all planes were to be used in both roles, freeing some space for additional planes) there is no need for an all interceptor equipped carrier. The main problem belongs to carrier operations, as pointed out above by You. So what would the soviets do? Sub operations and low level bomber attacks (probably in a large scale). More probably: Asking the British for help. Lancaster with Tallboys could deal with the thread, however, it must be remebered that high level bombing on moving ships doesn´t work good with unguided weapons.
 
But the question is whether Soviets would like to sink the Graf or maybe "just" damage heavily enough to get her to shipyard and then capture it. An aircraft carrier was the thing that Soviets wanted to get - and that's what happened to the GZ after war.
 
delcyros said:
Good post.
I think, I got your point. I do not say that GZ would turn the wheel or anything else (i did not initiate this szenario, but I participate). The outcome would be the same. But the odds were good in the Baltic in 1945. The soviets had no considerable surface units (i think the Marat only, but Kronstadt and Marat were both in no seaworthy condition at any time later than 1942) and even their subs were only mediocre (one exception: S-13, which succeed in sinking the transports Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben). Not to name the air forces, which were uneffective (they had problems to sink minesweepers) against the Prinz Eugen, Lutzow and Hipper or even against transports (Lutzow was sunken in very late april, at a time when she did not have enough fuel to move, she was to be abandoned, anyway). The soviet air force never worked out a useful ship busting tactic (losses of Il-2 and Tu-2 against KM shipping in the Baltic were huge, even in early 1945). The KM on the other side put all into action, what they had, cruisers, destroyers, pocket battleships, transports, small ships... and they succed in the largest evacuating operation in history. GZ could make some efforts here, either as protection or -more probable- as a huge and fast transport ship. The (hypothetical)Fw-190 could do all carrier jobs, the same plane can bomb targets or provide fighter cover (so all planes were to be used in both roles, freeing some space for additional planes) there is no need for an all interceptor equipped carrier. The main problem belongs to carrier operations, as pointed out above by You. So what would the soviets do? Sub operations and low level bomber attacks (probably in a large scale). More probably: Asking the British for help. Lancaster with Tallboys could deal with the thread, however, it must be remebered that high level bombing on moving ships doesn´t work good with unguided weapons.

And that is basically what I am trying to say. I think she too would have been destroyed but she had a chance in this kind of a scenerio. And yes as you stated "What if" is exactly that "What if".

toffigd said:
But the question is whether Soviets would like to sink the Graf or maybe "just" damage heavily enough to get her to shipyard and then capture it. An aircraft carrier was the thing that Soviets wanted to get - and that's what happened to the GZ after war.

I would think they would have rather had her captured but in the end I dont think they would have gotten her alive anyhow. The Germans would have scuttled her like they did the Panzerschiff Admiral Graf Spee in December 1939 and even if the Russians had raised her then like they did after the war she would have been useless to them.
 

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