What of the Me 410?

[Crumpp]

This may help somewhat, Me410 Kennblatt.

 

[Kurfürst]

Very nice find Crumpp, thank you for sharing! I`ve always wonder what power the figures given the Mankau book were understood for, this clears it up!

Thanks again.

 

[Crumpp]

Your welcome. Hope you all enjoy it!

For everyone:

If you get the chance or feel the need, donate a buck or two to the WWII fighter Aircraft Foundation please!

WWII Fighter Aircraft Foundation

 

[Micdrow]

I converted the pages by Crumpp into an easier pdf file for those that wish to view it that way.

 

[Crumpp]

Thanks!

 

[Vincenzo]

the max speed is 590 km/h, commonly the max speed is inicated in over 620 km/h, i suppose that 9.5 tons configuration is not clean or free bomb bay, true ?

 

[Crumpp]

I think it is climb and combat power performance.

 

[Vincenzo]

we need a Deutsch speaking

 

[Udet]

That´s some brilliant piece of documentation Herr Crumpp.

It adds strenght to some points i discussed in the past with regard to fuel tank capacity for the Me 410 (ie. priceless fuel was being alloted in large numbers to keep the Me 410s of ZG 26 and ZG 76 in operations for 1944).

 

[Soren]

I think it is climb and combat power performance.

Yup, thats what it says

 

[Crumpp]

we need a Deutsch speaking

Got it. I might have some experience with German aircraft.....

All though when it takes a month to figure out where the left or right handed waffengeber is located because none of the native speakers can agree on what the waffengeber actually is on the aircraft.

edit - It's the master solenoid for synchronization of the FW190 fuselage weapons.

Yup, thats what it says

Thank you Soren. Your effort is appreciated.

All the best,

Crumpp

 

[Crumpp]

That´s some brilliant piece of documentation Herr Crumpp.

Enjoy it!

Once again, don't forget a dollar or two to the Fighter Aircraft Foundation when you get that big tax refund!

 

[Breizh]

Thanks for those Crumpp

Does anyone have documentation of the 8x20mm configuration?

 

[Freebird]

I hope my colleagues here do not miss the point as i am not putting the whole blame on the Me 410 for having wasted men and material that could instead have been put to a much much better use against the USAAF.

The Bf 110s still serving in daylight missions, and the unusually high number of bombers produced during 1944 with more than 2,000 bombers made. The number gets dwarfed when put by the side of the USA heavy bomber production figure for 1944 alone with some 15,000 machines.

Knowing the number of heavy bombers produced by the USA alone during 1944 makes German planners look even more unwise. What could ~2,000 bombers achieve for Germany during 1944? So when i say "unusually high" i am referring to the critical situation of Germany during such year.

I will not get tired of saying how come there are people who fail to see how unnecessary the Me 410 was...

"But once the allies pilot training program and P51/P38 deployments began in earnest, there was nothing the LW could do. The arithmatric of attrition was tilted heavily in the Allies favor."

Partially correct. Now, why do i say partially? Simple, USAAF losses remained heavy during the first half of 1944...also not forget that as late as in October 1943, the losses of USAAF pilots and crews at the hands of the Luftwaffe were so high even a nation with a large pool of replacements was confronted with the notion of not being capable to continue accepting such loss ratio.

So if the outnumbered and overstretched Luftwaffe proved capable of pushing them guys of the USAAF to begin wondering whether to continue accepting the death toll, think again of what could have been achieved if Me 210/410-Bf 110 production is cancelled and bomber production gets dramatically cut prior to the end of 1943....at minimum all that fuel the Steinbock raids swallowed during the first months of 1944 goes to the Jagdwaffe that could have had more fighters to face the oncoming aerial onslaught.

Civettone rightfully strikes back and says not every rear gunner or bomber crewman will become a fighter pilot -no one by the way suggested such a thing-; ok, i give him that...but what about the pilots of the ~500 bombers that comprised the force to unleash the Steinbock business?

Convert them to fighter pilots, and if only half of them show the skills to become a decent fighter pilot you have 250 pilots...it is a four gruppen geschwader.

"Big Week" is another dish comprising the mythology menu of the allies; there are others that are not necessarily related to air combat: the Brits and their "triumph" at Arras during Fall Gelb, and the US Army and its fairy tales of the "Siege of Bastogne" that includes a "gallant stand" against overwhelming odds that in reality were everything but overwhelming.

Udet, you are correct on this point. The Germans made the same mistake as the British did in 41/42 of trying to build too many bombers and not keeping air superiority as the highest priority.

Looking from the British point of view, the disaster in Malaya in '41 was mainly because of a lack of air support, the situation would have changed dramaticly if they had another 200 - 300 Hurricanes. Yet at the same time they were losing 150 - 200 bombers / month in the ETO. (1000+ aircrew!) Because Portal Harris were in control of Bomber Command the RAF, still with the pipe dream of the "Trenchard" doctrine, bombers were heavily produced at the expence of fighters.

The Germans have the same problem, Hitler's desire to strike back at Britain is the main reason that the Me 262 was first pushed as a jet (if I am not mistaken.) The Luftwaffe should have concentrated on fighters as air defence much earlier, air superiority should always be the #1 priority.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I speak German. I can take a crack at some translations. I cant do them immediatly however. Once things die back down at work and the hollidays are all over and done with I can take a look at the stuff.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Vincenzo,

>the max speed is 590 km/h, commonly the max speed is inicated in over 620 km/h, i suppose that 9.5 tons configuration is not clean or free bomb bay, true ?

It's for 9500 kg flying weight with no external loads. The text notes "If 4 x 50 kg bombs are carried externally, speeds are reduced by 10 km/h."

11300 kg is the permissible maximum take-off weight, 9300 kg stated as the "average return flight weight".

The speeds in the graph are for climb and combat power (permissible for 30 min), while often top speeds are listed for emergency power (typically permissible for 5 min).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Hawksley]

Hi
I am trying to find a photogaph of Lt Wolfgang Wenning II./KG51.
Both he and Fw Gustav Delp(W/Op)were killed on 27/04/44 when in collision
with an Airspeed Oxford, near Frankton Rugby.

thanks,
Mike.

 

[drgondog]

13 May 1944 , One of the most disastrous missions for II./ZG76 was when they was jumped by 20 P-51s and 12 a/c were written of, many aircrews was lost and the US bomber force flew on unhindered to Poznan. Obefelwebel Wolfgang Martin rammed a B-17 with his damaged Me 410 after ordering his crew to bale out.

GT - do you have more details on this one?

Two flights of the 354FS of the 355th FG bounced a force of approximately 20 Me 410's attacking the B-17 force short of Posnan.. for claims of 8-2-1 and awards of 6-1-4 Me 410s in the Landsberg area east of Berlin.

The 357FG shot down three near Grunberg

That doesn't quite square with the described "20 Mustangs" but the area sounds right.. any more details?

 

[Kruska]

Hello drgondog,

Wiki says:

Moderately successful against unescorted bombers, a considerable number of kills against USAAF day bomber formations were achieved. Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, the Me 410 was no match in a dogfight with the lighter Allied single-engine fighters such as the seven-ton P-47 Thunderbolt or the even lighter P-51 Mustang.

In the Spring of 1944 the Me 410 formations encountered swarms of Allied fighters protecting the bomber streams and their successes against escorted bombers were often offset by their losses. An example of this on 6 March 1944 saw sixteen Me 410s shot down in return for eight B-17s and four P-51s (which were destroyed by Bf 109 and Fw 190 fighters escorting the Me 410s).

The following month on 11 April II.ZG 26's Me 410s accounted for a rare success, downing ten B-17s without any losses. However the units luck ran out. During the course of the same raid their second sortie was intercepted by P-51s which destroyed eight Me 410s and three Bf 110s. Sixteen crewman were killed and three wounded

Regards
Kruska

 

[drgondog]

on April 11 the 4th and 355th FG's hurt Me 410's in the Stettin and Pyritz area plus destroyed about 5 more "Ju188/88's" which might have been Me 410's.

In Wood's and Butler's Luftwaffe Awards list there is a May 28 claim by a ZG26 pilot on a Mustang which could very well fit the loss of Lt Barger of 354FS near Zerbst. He was last seen chasing several Me 109s along with his wingman Christensen - but the location of the crash better fits the Me 410 award than any of the Me 109 scores.

If an Me 410 snuck up on a Mustang it could sure shoot it down easily.

The 355th had several good days over Me 410's including April 11, May 12 and July 7. In each of those days multiple Ju 88's and 188's were also shot down - possibly mis identified Me 410's.

Unlike the many other 8th AF FG that encountered and shot down Me 110/210in the fall 1943 and winter 1944, the 355th Fg only shot down or damaged a grand total of 3-1-1 Me 110/210's but scored awards for 25-2-7 Me 410's and 7-2-1 Ju 88/188's... basically on four missions.