What of the Me 410?

[davebender]

full armament of the Hungarian heavy fighter version (C-1) was 2xMG 151/20 and a 36M 40mm Bofors cannon. Triple 140mm mortar tubes were carried under the wings.

I've never understood the purpose for such a weapons mix.

A twin engine aircraft can carry 4 centerline mounted 20mm cannon (in fuselage sides). If that won't knock the enemy down then you aren't hitting the target. Add 140mm mortar tubes and you will just miss the target with larger projectiles.

 

[Denniss]

Sounds like the Me-410A never actually entered mass production.

Messerschmitt Me 410
All listed as "Neubau" were built from scratch without using stored Me 210 fuselages. The Me 210 production numbers are from the military archive Freiburg, they may have some roome for interpretions but it seems a/c for Hungary and Germany were separately counted by the RLM.

 

[davebender]

Interesting that Me-410 new builds did not begin until November 1943. So German Me-210 / Me-410 production lines were shut down about 18 months. Milch probably thought he had the project killed until Hitler or Goering gave him a direct order to restart production.

 

[rinkol]

At the time there was interest in using large calibre guns to attack bombers from outside the effective range of their defensive guns. A number of Me 410s were fitted with a 50 mm gun, but the effectiveness was hampered by the general difficulty in aiming, the limited ammunition supply, and a tendency to jam. Moreover, the considerable weight became a serious liability with escort fighters becoming ever more numerous. For the anti-bomber role, the R4M rocket turned out to be a much better bet, but came too late to have much effect.

Elsewhere, the Soviets made fairly extensive use of 37 mm guns for air-to-air combat and a 37 mm gun had been fitted to the P-39.

 

[vikingBerserker]

This has been a pretty interesting thread fellas, well done.

 

[Shortround6]

Elsewhere, the Soviets made fairly extensive use of 37 mm guns for air-to-air combat and a 37 mm gun had been fitted to the P-39.

there are 37mm guns and there are 37mm (or 40mm) cannon.

The American 37mm gun weighed about 96KG. the most common Russian 37mm weighed about 170KG, a 40mm Bofors gun was around 440KG.

 

[Oreo]

Weren't Bofors 40mm cannons primarily used as ground or ship-based anti-aircraft guns? And weren't they designed in Sweden (a neutral country) but used by practically every nation in the war?

 

[stona]

It's worth pointing out that rockets and mortars on late war German aircraft weren't really intended to shoot down the bombers,though this would be a happy side effect were it to happen. The intention was to break up the formation making the individual bombers much safer targets.
A pilot could score points for a "Herrausschuss",seperating a bomber from its formation. He got two points for seperating a four engined bomber,only one less than shooting it down. Forty points theoretically got him a Knight's Cross. This is a reflection of the importance placed on disrupting the defensive formations of the bombers.

I've been looking at some pictures of the large calibre weapons fitted to Me 410s (in Petrick and Stockers's Me210/Me410 book) and they don't look nice. Enormous weapons which must have had a catastrophic effect on the handling of the aircraft which,in a cleaner conformation,was quite good.

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

A few 20mm mine shell hits are likely to cause enough damage to make that happen.

 

[stona]

The psychological effect of a weapon can be as important as its physical effect. This was certainly the case with the air to air rockets.
The best example of this,whilst not in an air to air context,is napalm.
Steve

 

[Erich]

actually the advent of the R4M was to shoot down bombers and well as the formations due to the fact that each wing carried a minimum of 12 rockets up to ............... 20 plus on piston as well as jet A/C. the Me 410 probably in effect had the widest range of LW cannon assortment known in the war. a perfect weapons base actually but as mentioned performance was driven off due to this fact.

side note: a book on ZG 76 and it's ops with the Bf 110G-2 and Me 410A and B is in the works

 

[davebender]

I suspect a hit by even a single 20mm mine shell is bad for aircrew morale. It would certainly get my attention.

 

[Erich]

yes about a 3 foot hole but lets realize this was from late June 44 onward after the Zerstörers had done what they could and almost time for the famed ZG units to become S/E JG's

 

[davebender]

That doesn't sound right.

I would expect a 3 foot hole from a 3cm mine shell. 20mm mine shell hole is probably more like 6 inches in size. Still plenty big for aircrew to notice and it's available much earlier then the 3cm Mk108 cannon.

 

[Erich]

3-6 ft for a 3cm Minengeschoss HE/I, 3ft or less for a 2cm minengschoss 1944-45 HE/I. Mine rounds were not developed before 1944 for A/C.................. guncam footage shows this

 

[stona]

It's not about the physical effect of the ordnance. The psychological effect,which many have tried and failed to quantify,has more to do with perception and anticipation than reality.
Many Bomber Command survivors are convinced to this day that the Germans fired pyrotechnic shells,the so called "scarecrows",to disconcert them but there is no evidence for this.
Steve

 

[davebender]

6 ft hole is an incredible amount of damage for one shell. If the weapon was that good why didn't Germany develop it 5 years earlier?

 

[Erich]

Steve the pyros were actually priovedn to be from the Incendiary blue rounds/Glimmspur of the LW NF's SM installation.

Dave no idea why not developed much earlier, the content of the 3cm M round was strengthened even further as 1944 ended and did you know the contents within the 3cm could actually cause the aluminum skin of the Allied bombers to burn and with that all sorts of nasty fuze settings to burst upon hitting or penetrating the bomber and then exploding.

back to the Me 410, the machines were not equipped with the M rounds till almost out of service but figure a Me 410B variant with standard 6 forward 2cm weapons, that is extreme firepower for which an Allied bomber is going to have trouble withstanding.

 

[davebender]

I hope Allied intelligence officers kept that information from bomber aircrew. If I knew the enemy had a weapon that powerful I would be too scared to take off.

 

[Shortround6]

Development of the Mine shell was a bit tricky. It required the forming of the thin wall body by special methods. A conventionally manufactured shell body that thin with a nose fuse would have buckled upon firing and possibly come apart in the gun or upon leaving the muzzle. According to some people the importance of the method used to make the mine shell is reflected in the Rheinmetall logo. It is not enough to have an idea. The idea must be able to be manufactured and manufactured in quantity and at an acceptable price.


Allied bomber crews took off knowing the Germans had 88mm, 106mm and 128mm anti-aircraft guns that could blow wings off or fuselages in half. A 30mm mine shell, no matter how powerful, wasn't really in the same league.