What of the Me 410?

Oreo · Jul 22, 2012

Ok, so what is the difference between a mine shell and a regular explosive round? Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't the 20mm rounds of all nations have the ability to fire explosive rounds, from the very beginning of the war? If not, then what rounds were the Hispanos, Rheinmetals, Mausers, etc. firing if not explosive rounds? Armor piercing?

Denniss · Jul 22, 2012

Shell (projectile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shortround6 · Jul 22, 2012

Oreo said:
Ok, so what is the difference between a mine shell and a regular explosive round? Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't the 20mm rounds of all nations have the ability to fire explosive rounds, from the very beginning of the war? If not, then what rounds were the Hispanos, Rheinmetals, Mausers, etc. firing if not explosive rounds? Armor piercing?

A mine shell, in 20mm size, could carry about twice the explosive of a normal HE shell. This had advantages and disadvantages. The thinner shell walls allowed more room for explosive but provided less shell fragments. Most (all service?) mine shells did not carry tracer components. Mine shells have poor penetration, granted most of the time this is not a big deal with fast acting fuses but the shell body of the mine shell is more likely to bend/break up/split open trying to penetrate thick stuff if the fuse doesn't function.
Mine shells were also only used for the first couple of years in low velocity guns. That is a relative term but a 10% increase in velocity requires about a 20% increase in propellant and a higher chamber pressure. It took a while for the manufacturing process to get the mine shell body to stand up to high velocity firing without buckling.
Mine shells improved the combat effectiveness of the German MG/FF (M) and the MG 151 but the were not an UBER shell that made all other 20mm shells/guns obsolete.

Timppa · Jul 22, 2012

Most cannon shells were made by drilling a hole through a solid steel projectile, to make room for the chemical contents. This led to heavy, thick-walled shells which only contained around 8-10% HEI by weight. In a typical 20mm shell weighing 120g, this meant that only around 10g was HEI mixture. The Germans developed a new type of shell made by drawing from a disk of steel, just as cartridge cases are made. These projectiles were thin-walled and much lighter overall, yet had far more room for chemicals. Their large capacity led to them being called "mine shells", or Minengeschoss (M-Geschoss for short). The standard 20mm M-Geschoss weighed only 92g yet held 18-20g of HEI chemicals, doubling the blast/incendiary effect. It was not always better than the traditional heavy shell (it depended on where it hit) but was usually more effective. An additional benefit was that the light weight permitted a higher muzzle velocity, reducing the time of flight.

IDEAL WW2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT

Erich · Jul 22, 2012

yes rounds of 2cm and 3cm also had Incendiary as well as Tracer, this the case of Glimmspur used for LW night fighters in forward arms but especially for the twin to single SM installation. there is actually much in the way of text on the Minengeschoss on the net just need to search it out. LW rounds for the m shell had special colored markings usually colored bands at the base of the round indicating the special ingredients beyond the normal yellow body of the HE round.

davebender · Jul 22, 2012

HE shells varied so widely that you really need to look at them individually.

22g HE filler for 2cm Flak38.
18g HE filler for typical MG151/20 and MG FF mine shell.
6 to 11g HE filler for Hs.404 20mm shells.

I have read that 6g was typical for WWII Hs.404 shells and 11g typical for post WWII. Does anyone have more specific information?

Shortround6 · Jul 22, 2012

When did the Mineshell for the 2cm Flak38 show up and how many were made and issued?

According to Tony William's book the British HE Mk 1.z projectile had either 10.5g Pentolite or 10.2g Tetryl. The US HEI MK 1 had 7g Tetryl + 4.3g of incendiary.

British had a SAPI projectile that had about 8-9 grams of incendiary filler if I recall right. ( a standard HE or incendiary shell body with with a hardened steel cap screwed in where the fuse normally would go.)

6 grams of HE in a 130 gram HE projectile sounds way too light but may be correct for a HE tracer round. Please note that the German 20mm HET for the MG 151 had around/between 3.7 to 4.4 grams of filler depending on source and if shell has HE -T or HEI-T. And that is for 117 gram projectiles. Many 20mm shells had the HE capacity cut roughly in half when a tracer element was added.

davebender · Jul 22, 2012

2 cm Flak 30/38/Flakvierling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brandsprenggranatpatrone mit Zerleger
22 g total (HE and incendiary)
Nose fuze, no tracer, with self-destruct. Lack of tracer and high density of incendiary allows heavy filling load.

A German mine shell would normally be listed as "Minengeschosspatrone". I think this is just normal HEI for the large 20 x 138mm B cartridge.

Shortround6 · Jul 22, 2012

Still doesn't tell us when it showed up. The is a British manual of light German AA and AT guns published in Dec of 1942 that lists 8 different rounds for the Flak 30 38. This round is not one of them. Now this round could have been being issued in Nov and it was too late to change the manual but I would doubt that this round was in use in 1941 or before. SO we don't know if it was late 1942 or 1943 or the spring of 1945.

I would also question the Wiki description. Every other round uses tracer burn through for the self destruct ( so live fused ammo doesn't fall on friendly troops/civilians) yet this round does not. While it is possible to design a 20mm fuse that will self destruct without using tracer burn through it makes for a larger, more complicated fuse. take out the coma and the description would be saying there is no self destruct.

davebender · Jul 22, 2012

Is that true for rounds normally employed against ground targets as the 2cm Flak 38 was?

Shortround6 · Jul 22, 2012

As far as I can find out, yes.

Why complicate the ammunition supply with more types of ammo than you really need? The self destruct doesn't function until around 2000 meters which is far enough for any practical ground firing.

Erich · Jul 23, 2012

that is not true for LW dayfighters, will be back with more specifics after chemo treatments ................ about tracer

Denniss · Jul 23, 2012

Mine ammo had the same colour as standard LW HE ammo - yellow. It just had an M stamped inside the yellow. A green band above the yellow was for self-destructive fuze (Zerleger), a red band below yellow was for standard tracer, a dark red band below yellow was for glow tracer.

Erich · Jul 23, 2012

to add to Dennis's posting the 2cm M round RDX/mixed with powdered Aluminum which boosted the blast effect by 30 %

US translation was the RDX/Cyclonite-Hexagen; which is cycle-trimethylene-tetramine which is 1.3 to 1.4 times more powerful than TNT.

Penthrite was the base for the 2cm HE round as well as the newer 2cm M HE round but later replaced with the HE component and Aluminum powder which was termed as : HA 41 = an HE/I round.

One 2cm M-Geschoßpatroae 151 m. Zerl had filler of 18.6 Nitropenta or HA 41 and this varied as the war progressed to heavier amounts of internal content and more explosive fuzes. Eval tests showed that 18 rounds were needed to bring down 1 US heavy bomber. (obviosuly directed to the major internal parts - inner engines and fuel tanks). late war 2cm rounds weighed in more than 104 grams and had hydro-static fuzes which were intended to be fired and detonate the fuel tanks.

colored bands at the base of the fuze were to differentiate between the 2cm rounds as well as the colored bodies.

for the body of both 2cm and 3cm Minengeschoss rounds :

yellow bodywas standard for HE
Blue bodyall over was an INCENDIARY ROUND, USED FOR NIGHT FIGHTERS
Grey body overall was a practice round

following 4 had yellow body but different colored bands at the top under the fuze

red ring was round with tracer
dark wine red ring was round with special night tracer
green ring was round was self-destroying including fuze
blue ring was round (HE/I)

Denniss · Jul 24, 2012

Just another add-on:
The main body color was definded by the main component/shell type, all other rings are add-ons to the main shell type. Main color black is missing, used for AP rounds.
Overall blue color does not specify a usage for night fighters, just a marker for an incendiary round.
The red/dark red rings for standard/night (glow) tracer were always at the bottom, below the main shell color

razor1uk · Jul 24, 2012

Erich said:
not sure Dave but Squadron Signal softback on the craft I believe has a couple pics under a ? test Kommando ? anyone confirm this please .............

As far as I know, the triple racked '21' set ups were deemed much too degrading to A/C performance (both in loaded and unloaded forms) and apart from propaganda perposes, weren't used operationaly against bombers - hence why only a few kits were built as R&D, most likely they were returned to more normal dual Wr.Gr.21 set ups.

donkeyking said:
Is this Me410's one of leading-edge slats or flap?
and who can tell me what's functions in Me410?
many thanks

since no one replied to you Donkeyking, they are the to do with the radiator system just like on 'F' (or later) model 109's - themostatically auto adjusting to provide optimal coolant temperature for its adjacent engine.

CharlesBronson said:
And for those who still have doubts... ( people of little faith )

It might have been said a page or two later, but whom ever printed that caption must be blind, inept, seriously having a bad day or just plain missed it.
The port side barbette' is clearly visible pointing downwards - you can see the MK's ejection port angled say around H-70 deg-ish; just around the rear bottom of the the trench coated guy on the wing.

peterpro said:
Well actually it was a combination of the R4 kit(2 MG151/20 gunpod) and the R5 kit (4 MG151/20 in the bomb bay).In the Me-410 mod for IL-2 it is possible to use this configuration in the Me-410B under the R4/R5 configuration.

For which IL-2 version and by what group - HSFX, SAS, UP, DBW... etc?
While an avid IL-2 fan, and I appreiciate the tie in to one of the best WW2 combat sims, I don't think that is evidence itself, just a '1946' style-a-like 'what if'/'if they could have'. Apologies for appearing to jump on you, this isn't meant to be a mauling... lol

stona · Jul 24, 2012

Re: Barbettes.
I have copies of documents proposing the development of the Me 410 put forward by the Messerschmitt Projektburo,Oberammergau,dated 15 May 1944.
There are more than forty proposed variants (including various bomb loads) and every single one of them features the barbettes.

None feature external gun pods despite being pure fantasy.

My favourite is a night fighter designated "Me 410 III" and features four upward firing cannon (schrage musik) two between the crewmen and two about halfway down the fuselage. It also features the ubiquitous barbettes and four forward firing cannon in the nose. I'd be surprised if they could have got it off the ground!

Cheers
Steve

Shortround6 · Jul 24, 2012

Let me guess. this "official" document also lists either 500 or 1000 rpg for the cannon too?

peterpro · Jul 24, 2012

Well the mod itself has received many significant updates lately and it i suggest a visit to sas1946 for further details.However i have been quite interested in this pequliar loadout (r4/r5) and i would like to know more about it.

Erich · Jul 24, 2012

triples as you will notice on Hungarian A/C only I know of NO LW A/C with this installation though there was a experiment with 4-inline launchers under the belly.

Steve back on the other page yes correct the blue bodied round of 2cm not for LW NF use only just mentioned that it was used by them with the dark red colored band at the base. have a round actually coming from Germany with this configuration.

What of the Me 410?

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