What plane do you wish had sawservice

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Mar 25, 2005
This topic is abut the planes that were experimental and never saw action. You pick the top 3 that you would have liked to see in the fighting.Mine are the
XP60 WARHAWK a modified P-40 WARHAWK
HEINKELL 100 a german fighter
What are you picks? :D
Republic XP-47J Thunderbolt



From http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_9.html :

The fastest version of the Thunderbolt was the XP-47J, which was proposed in November 1942 as a lighter-weight version of the Thunderbolt designed to explore the outer limits of the design's basic performance envelope. The XP-47J was fitted with a 2800 hp Pratt and Whitney R-2800-57(C) housed inside a close-fitting cowling and cooled by a fan. The ventral intake for the CH-5 turbosupercharger was separated from the engine cowling and moved aft. The four-bladed propeller was fitted with a large conical-shaped spinner. The wing structure was lightened and the armament was reduced from eight to six 0.50-inch machine guns. The contract was approved on June 18, 1943.

The XP-47J was a completely new airframe and not a conversion of an existing P-47D. The serial number was 43-46952. The XP-47J flew for the first time on November 26, 1943. On August 4, 1944, it attained a speed of 504 mph in level fight, becoming the first propeller-driven fighter to exceed 500 mph. At one time, it was proposed that the J model would be introduced onto the production line, but the advent of the even more advanced XP-72 resulted in plans for the production of the P-47J being abandoned before any more could be completed.

A proposal to adapt the XP-47J to use contrarotating propellers with an R-2800-61 engine was dropped.

Maximum speed of the XP-47J was 507 mph at 34,300 feet, range was 765 miles at 400 mph, 1070 miles at economical cruising speed. An altitude of 15,000 feet could be reached in 4.5 minutes. Service ceiling was 45,000 feet. Weights were 9663 pounds empty, 12,400 pounds normal loaded, 16,780 pounds maximum. Wingspan was 40 feet 11 inches, length was 33 feet 3 inches, height was 14 feet 2 inches, and wing area was 300 square feet.

From http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html :

The "J" was fitted with a high output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power.

The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of its rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet.

The "J" model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive, don't you think? No, this was not a stripped down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more.

Republic XP-72 Superbolt



Specific ation of Republic XP-72:

Powerplant: One 3450 hp Pratt Whitney R-4360-13 Wasp Major air-cooled radial engine.

Performance: Maximum speed was 490 mph at 25,000 feet. Normal range was 1200 miles at 300 mph and maximum range was 2520 miles at 315 mph with two 125 Imp. gall. drop tanks. Initial climb rate was 5280 feet per minute, and climb rate at 25,000 feet was 3550 feet per minute. An altitude of 15,000 feet could be reached in 3.5 minutes, 20,000 feet in 5 minutes. Service ceiling was 42,000 feet.

Weights were 11,476 pounds empty, 14,433 pounds normal loaded, 17,490 pounds maximum.

Dimensions were wingspan 40 feet 11 inches, length 36 feet 7 inches, height 16 feet 0 inches, and wing area 300 square feet.

Armament: Four 37mm cannon.

Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star

SAI Ambrosini SS4, a canard pusher fighter from 1939 that was unfortunately destroyed in prototype form.
Was the SAI Ambrosini SS4 an Italian fighter? It has a very interesting design. The design engineers certainly were thinking "out of the box."

What were its peformance figures?

What armament did it carry?
1) Horten Ho229
2) Messerschmitt Me264
3) Polikarpov VIT-2 - I dunno if it was supposed to be a good plane or not but, it certainly did look good...
Well I didnt know that the heinkell 100 did see service :(
If it did not more then 10 to 50 of them did
And I also thought that the P-80 did see service..
Oh wait a minute I bet you ment in WW2 . I ment in WW2 and the immediate post WW2
He 100 in service
In 1940 the He 100's were publicized by Goebbels in a propaganda effort aimed at convincing people that a new fighter was entering service with the Luftwaffe. The plan involved taking pictures of the remaining D-1's at different air bases around Germany, each time sporting a new paint job for various fictional fighter groups. The pictures were then published in the press with the He 113 name, sometimes billed as night fighters (rather silly since you could see they didn't even have a landing light).

The plane also appeared in a series of "action shot" photographs in various magazines like Der Alder, including claims that it had proven itself in combat in Denmark and Norway. One source claims that the planes were on loan to the one Luftwaffe staffel in Norway for a time, but this might be a case of the same misinformation working many years later.

It's unclear even today exactly who this effort was intended to impress —foreign air forces or Germany's public— but it seems to have been a successful deception. British intelligence featured the plane in AIR 40/237, a report on the Luftwaffe that was completed in 1940. There the top speed was listed as 390mph (interesting that it also states the wing was 167 square feet) and it noted that the plane was in production. Reports of 113's encountered and shot down were listed throughout the early years of the war.

The remaining twelve He 100D-1c fighters were used to form Heinkel's Marienehe factory defense unit, flown by factory test pilots. They replaced the earlier He 112's that were used for the same purpose, and the 112's were later sold off. At this early stage in the war there were no bombers venturing that far into Germany, and it appears that the unit never saw action. The eventual fate of the D-1's remains unknown.



The topic as set out by you concerned "planes that were experimental and never saw action."

The P-80 never saw action. It was deployed right beforen the end of the war but never saw combat (action).

Perhaps it doesn't fit the second requirement of your topic, "experimental."
1) Avro 684 Stratosphere Bomber- planned aircraft, a modified lancaster with a predicted ceiling of 50,300ft

2) High speed lancaster- only a project, never flew or made but a predicted top speed of 350mph gove or take a bit..........

3) don't know yet...........
Was the SAI Ambrosini SS4 an Italian fighter? It has a very interesting design. The design engineers certainly were thinking "out of the box."

What were its peformance figures?

What armament did it carry?

Max speed was about 540kmh from only 960hp ~ 335mph. Most places list the intended armament as being 1x30mm and 2x20mm but i think it would be more probable to have 1x20mm and 2x12.7mm instead.

Another choice of mine would be the SAI 207/403 lightweight fighter. Only 750hp but 648kmp ~ 400mph speed and excellent handling.
Here are the aircraft that I wish had seen service:

1. Messerschmitt Me P.1101
2. Blohm Voss Bv-155
3. Henschell Hs-132
4. Messerschmitt Me-263
5. Messerschmitt Me-309
6. Focke Wulf Ta-183
7. Bell XP-83
8. Northrop XP-56

Sorry I know that this list is more then 3 but I could not help myself. I really do wish these had atleast seen a little service so that we may have been able to see what they could really do.
Good list Im changing it to all you want (In reason) The ones Im gonna add are the messerschmitt 264 and the japanese reppu
Ill be back later and see what all has been picked. I never heard of the messerschmitt 309 (im gonna go to MSN search now)
Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Messerscmitt AG
Models: V1 and V2
First Flight: June 1942
Service Delivery: None
Final Delivery: None

Model: Daimler-Benz DB 605B
Type: Inverted V12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower: 1,475

Wing span: 11.04m (36 ft. 2¾ in.)
Length: 9.46m (31 ft. ½ in.)
Height: 3.45m (11 ft. 3 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights: (V1)
Empty: 3530kg (7,783 lbs.)
Maximum: 4250kg (9,371 lbs.)

Maximum Speed: 733km/h (455 mph)
Initial climb: NA
Range: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A

Armament: (V4)
Four 13mm Machine Guns
Two 20mm Cannon
Two 30mm Cannon


The 309 was originally designed to be the definitive successor to the 109. Innovative features included a pressurized cockpit, tricycle landing gear, and a retractable radiator. However, the 309 could be out turned by the Bf 109G and was judged inferior to the Fw 190D and never reached production. The Me 609 was to be a twinned version similiar to the P-82.


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The Me 309 I think was not that great, and the Me 209 was well close to the bf 109k, yes?

This has to meny good pics and that is just the Italian planes ;)
But for the USAAC the Bat would have been good.
The USN's New Carriers were on the way.

Messerschmitt's designation Me 209 was actually used for two separate projects during World War II. The first Me 209 was a record-setting single-engined race plane for which little or no consideration was given to adaptation for combat. The second, described below, was the Me 209-II, a proposal for an enhanced version of the highly successful Messerschmitt Bf 109 which served as the Luftwaffe's primary fighter throughout World War II.

The second incarnation of the Me 209 project came in 1943 when Willy Messerschmitt proposed an heavily modified version of his extremely successful but aging Me 109. This Me 209 would compete against Focke-Wulf's high performance Fw 190D-9 and Ta 152 fighters. Like these enhanced versions of Kurt Tank's design, the new Me 209 would share most of its airframe with a proven model, in this case the Me 109G. This marked a departure from the first failed Me 209 and later Me 309 projects which had proposed completely new designs.

Unfortunately for the design team, the Me 209's proposed DB 603 engine was in short supply and they were forced to use the Jumo 213E engine which offered inferior performance. The Me 209 featured a new tail section, broad-track landing gear, a taller tail, and an annular radiator which gave the engine a superficial resemblance to a radial powerplant. As with the original 209 project, however, successive modifications undermined the original purpose of the plane, in this case to build a superior fighter as similar to the existing Me 109G as possible.

As the project progressed, increasingly cumbersome designations signalled the Me 209's evolution from a simple, enhanced version of the Bf 109 to a progressively incompatible airframe. The Me 209 V5 featured armament of one MK 108 and two MG 131 in the wingroots. The V6 was the first version to be converted to use the Jumo 213 engine and had MG 151/20 guns instead of the MG 131. The Me 209H V1 was a high-altitude variant with extended wings and reverted to the DB 603.

Despite this proliferation of variants however, the program met a swift end when the Me 209 V5 prototype first flew in late 1944. It was 50 km/h (31 mph) slower than the already-available Fw 190D, however, and offered no improvement in handling characteristics. After its disappointing show, the Me 209 project was cancelled and with it ended Messerschmitt's last attempt to build a high-performance piston engine fighter.

General characteristics
Crew: one, pilot
Length: 9.74 m (31 ft 11 in)
Wingspan: 10.95 m (35 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.00 m (13 ft 1 in)
Wing area: 17.2 m² (185 ft²)
Empty: 3,339 kg (7,346 lb)
Loaded: 4,085 kg (8,987 lb)
Maximum takeoff: kg ( lb)
Powerplant: 1x Db 603G, 1,397 kW (1,900 hp)

Maximum speed: 678 km/h (423 mph)
Range: 600 km (374 miles)
Service ceiling: 11,000 m (36,080 ft)
Rate of climb: m/min ( ft/min)
Wing loading: 238 kg/m² (49 lb/ft²)
Power/Mass: 0.36 kW/kg (0.22 hp/lb)

1x 30 mm MK 108 cannon
2x 13 mm MG 131 machine guns

Other designs derived from the Me-109 were the


The Messerschmitt development department received a directive in 1942 to begin work on a Zerstörer (destroyer, or heavy fighter). An earlier RLM directive of 1941 had tried to limit the amount of new designs coming from the major aircraft companies (to not disrupt the production lines with new aircraft), so it was decided to couple two Bf 109 fuselages together, along with a new center wing and tailplane section, to come up with the Me 109Z (Zwilling, or twin).
The Me 109Z prototype incorporated two Bf 109F-4 fuselages, joined with a new constant chord wing center section and parallel chord tailplane. Included also was the 109F-4 powerplant, the Daimler Benz DB 601E-1 engine (12 cylinder, liquid-cooled, inverted V - 1750 horsepower on takeoff). The main landing gear attachment point were moved inboard to attach to a strengthened centerline keel in each fuselage. The outermost main landing gear retracted outboard; the inner legs retracted into the new center wing section. A single pilot sat in the port cockpit and the starboard cockpit was faired over. Armament on the projected production models varied (see below).
Several other Me 109Z designs were planned, developed around the 109G fuselages. The Me 109Z was to use around 90% of pre-existing 109 parts, with only the new main wing and tailplane, modified landing gear mountings, slightly larger wheels, extra fuel tanks in place of the starboard cockpit and a few other components needed to complete the aircraft. A prototype was completed in early 1943, but it was damaged in an Allied air attack on the Messerschmitt test center, and the damage was deemed too severe for repair. The development was abandoned in 1944, and by then, the Me 262 jet fighter had taken wing. One interesting note: the North American aircraft company followed the same design (independently) to produce the P-82 Twin Mustang, which was two P-51 fuselages joined in a similar manner as the Me 109Z.


The Messerschmitt 109 Turbo-Lader Strahltriebwerk ( turbocharger jet engine) was proposed on January 22, 1943 at an RLM conference as a back-up for the Me 262, of which only three prototypes had been completed at the time. In order to cut down on design and production time, various components from existing aircraft was to be used. The fuselage from the Me 155B high-altitude fighter was to be used (with a new nose and tail section), the wing was from the Me 409 project and the undercarriage came from the Me 309. The armament was to be two MG 151/20 20mm cannon (120 rounds each) and two MK 103 30mm cannon, all in the nose. A later proposal included two MK 108 30mm cannon could be installed in the wing roots. The performance was estimated to be better than the Me 262 due to the Me 109 TL's narrower fuselage. Following intensive study, by March 1943 it was decided that so many modifications to the various components would be needed that no time would be gained over the Me 262 development, thus the project was abandoned. Please see below for Evan Mayerle's fictional technical history of the Me 109 TL...

Me-309 which was covered in earlier post


The Me 409 design was similar in concept to the Bf 109Z, except that the fuselages of the Me 209 high-altitude fighter were used, and the new wing that had been designed for the Me 155. The project was cancelled in 1944.


Although the Me 509 can trace its roots back to the Me 309, very little information has survived. The aircraft was to be of an all-metal construction. A new fuselage was designed, with the pressurized cockpit being moved well forward near the nose. The Daimler Benz 605B 12-cylinder engine was buried in the fuselage behind the cockpit, and drove a three-bladed, Me P 6 reversible-pitch propeller by an extension shaft which passed beneath the cockpit (similar to the US Bell P-39). The wing was tapered and had rounded wingtips, and was mounted low on the fuselage. Other Me 309 components were to be used, such as the tricycle landing gear, and the vertical tail assembly was similar to the one used for the Me 309 V1. Armament was not decided upon for the 509, but it is thought that two MG 131 13mm machine guns and two MG 151 20mm cannon were to be used. Although there were advantages of better cockpit visibility and relocation of the engine weight from the nose gear (important, since the Me 309's nose gear often collapsed), the Me 509 design and development was stopped when the Me 309 program was ended in mid-1943.
In April 1945, the Japanese completed a very similar project, the Yokosuka R2Y Keiun. Although no firm evidence exists, it is possible that the Me 309/509 information was licensed to the Japanese military, as were a number of other German designs (Bf 109, He 100, Me 163, Me 410, among others).


The Messerschmitt Me 609 was a short-lived project which joined two fuselages of the Me 309 fighter prototype together to form a heavy fighter. The project was initiated in response to a 1941 RLM requirement for a new Zerstörer (heavy fighter) to replace the Bf 110 that would use a minimum of development time and new parts. Messerschmitt's response was the Me 609, which would use the failed Me 309 project to form the basis of the new fighter. The company had actually contemplated numerous twin-fuselage adaptations of its Bf 109 line including the Bf 109Z (which joined two Bf 109s) and the Me 409 (which used two Me 209 aircraft).

The Me 609 would have joined the two Me 309 fuselages with a new center wing section into which the two inboard wheels of the landing gear would retract. The Me 609 kept the Me 309's tricycle undercarriage which resulted in an ungainly 6-six wheel arrangement. The Me 609 would have had its cockpit in the port fuselage, the starboard begin smoothed over.

The finished project would have been used in both the heavy-fighter and high-speed bomber roles, but by the time designs were being ironed out, the revolutionary Me 262 negated the need for further piston-engined fighter design.

Although its cobbled-together appearance might lead one to suspect this doubling of existing airframes was a the move of a desperate design team, it should be noted that the North American P-82 Twin Mustang proved the efficacy of such an aircraft in Korea, where its superior speed and range made it one of the last piston-engined fighters to fight for the U.S. Air Force.

General characteristics
Crew: one, pilot
Length: 9.72 m (31 ft 11 in)
Wingspan: 15.75 m (52 ft 6 in)
Height: 3.43 m (11 ft 3 in)
Wing area: m² ( ft²)
Empty: 5,247 kg (11,660 lb)
Loaded: 6,534 kg (14,520 lb)
Maximum takeoff: kg ( lb)
Powerplant: 2x Daimler-Benz DB 603, kW ( hp) each

Maximum speed: 760 km/h (472 mph)
Range: km ( miles)
Service ceiling: m ( ft)
Rate of climb: m/min ( ft/min)
Wing loading: kg/m² ( lb/ft²)
Power/Mass: kW/kg ( hp/lb)

2x 30 mm MK 103 cannons
2x 30 mm MK 108 cannons
500 kg (1,100 lb) of bombs


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Thanks for all the great photos and specs deradler :D

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