What plane do you wish had sawservice

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Mosin, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. Mosin

    Mosin Member

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    This topic is abut the planes that were experimental and never saw action. You pick the top 3 that you would have liked to see in the fighting.Mine are the
    XP60 WARHAWK a modified P-40 WARHAWK
    XF5U CORSAIR A modified F4U CORSAIR
    HEINKELL 100 a german fighter
    What are you picks? :D
     
  2. toffigd

    toffigd Member

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    Heinkel saw action!

    Mine would be:
    RWD-22 - recon torpedo-bomber
    PZL P.62 - single engine fighter
    PZL P.49 Mis (Bear) - medium bomber, modification of P.37b Los

    http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/ search in "samoloty polskie" on the left
     
  3. DAVIDICUS

    DAVIDICUS Member

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    Republic XP-47J Thunderbolt

    http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-16.jpg

    http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-17.jpg



    From http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_9.html :

    The fastest version of the Thunderbolt was the XP-47J, which was proposed in November 1942 as a lighter-weight version of the Thunderbolt designed to explore the outer limits of the design's basic performance envelope. The XP-47J was fitted with a 2800 hp Pratt and Whitney R-2800-57(C) housed inside a close-fitting cowling and cooled by a fan. The ventral intake for the CH-5 turbosupercharger was separated from the engine cowling and moved aft. The four-bladed propeller was fitted with a large conical-shaped spinner. The wing structure was lightened and the armament was reduced from eight to six 0.50-inch machine guns. The contract was approved on June 18, 1943.

    The XP-47J was a completely new airframe and not a conversion of an existing P-47D. The serial number was 43-46952. The XP-47J flew for the first time on November 26, 1943. On August 4, 1944, it attained a speed of 504 mph in level fight, becoming the first propeller-driven fighter to exceed 500 mph. At one time, it was proposed that the J model would be introduced onto the production line, but the advent of the even more advanced XP-72 resulted in plans for the production of the P-47J being abandoned before any more could be completed.

    A proposal to adapt the XP-47J to use contrarotating propellers with an R-2800-61 engine was dropped.

    Maximum speed of the XP-47J was 507 mph at 34,300 feet, range was 765 miles at 400 mph, 1070 miles at economical cruising speed. An altitude of 15,000 feet could be reached in 4.5 minutes. Service ceiling was 45,000 feet. Weights were 9663 pounds empty, 12,400 pounds normal loaded, 16,780 pounds maximum. Wingspan was 40 feet 11 inches, length was 33 feet 3 inches, height was 14 feet 2 inches, and wing area was 300 square feet.

    From http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html :

    The "J" was fitted with a high output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power.

    The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of its rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet.

    The "J" model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive, don't you think? No, this was not a stripped down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more.

    Republic XP-72 Superbolt

    http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/xp72-2.jpg

    http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p72-2.jpg

    Specific ation of Republic XP-72:

    Powerplant: One 3450 hp Pratt Whitney R-4360-13 Wasp Major air-cooled radial engine.

    Performance: Maximum speed was 490 mph at 25,000 feet. Normal range was 1200 miles at 300 mph and maximum range was 2520 miles at 315 mph with two 125 Imp. gall. drop tanks. Initial climb rate was 5280 feet per minute, and climb rate at 25,000 feet was 3550 feet per minute. An altitude of 15,000 feet could be reached in 3.5 minutes, 20,000 feet in 5 minutes. Service ceiling was 42,000 feet.

    Weights were 11,476 pounds empty, 14,433 pounds normal loaded, 17,490 pounds maximum.

    Dimensions were wingspan 40 feet 11 inches, length 36 feet 7 inches, height 16 feet 0 inches, and wing area 300 square feet.

    Armament: Four 37mm cannon.

    Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star

    http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/aircraft/shootstr.htm
     
  4. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    SAI Ambrosini SS4, a canard pusher fighter from 1939 that was unfortunately destroyed in prototype form.
     
  5. DAVIDICUS

    DAVIDICUS Member

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    Was the SAI Ambrosini SS4 an Italian fighter? It has a very interesting design. The design engineers certainly were thinking "out of the box."

    What were its peformance figures?

    What armament did it carry?
     
  6. JCS

    JCS Member

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    1) Horten Ho229
    2) Messerschmitt Me264
    3) Polikarpov VIT-2 - I dunno if it was supposed to be a good plane or not but, it certainly did look good...
     
  7. Mosin

    Mosin Member

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    Well I didnt know that the heinkell 100 did see service :(
    If it did not more then 10 to 50 of them did
    And I also thought that the P-80 did see service..
    Oh wait a minute I bet you ment in WW2 . I ment in WW2 and the immediate post WW2
     
  8. toffigd

    toffigd Member

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    He 100 in service
    In 1940 the He 100's were publicized by Goebbels in a propaganda effort aimed at convincing people that a new fighter was entering service with the Luftwaffe. The plan involved taking pictures of the remaining D-1's at different air bases around Germany, each time sporting a new paint job for various fictional fighter groups. The pictures were then published in the press with the He 113 name, sometimes billed as night fighters (rather silly since you could see they didn't even have a landing light).

    The plane also appeared in a series of "action shot" photographs in various magazines like Der Alder, including claims that it had proven itself in combat in Denmark and Norway. One source claims that the planes were on loan to the one Luftwaffe staffel in Norway for a time, but this might be a case of the same misinformation working many years later.

    It's unclear even today exactly who this effort was intended to impress —foreign air forces or Germany's public— but it seems to have been a successful deception. British intelligence featured the plane in AIR 40/237, a report on the Luftwaffe that was completed in 1940. There the top speed was listed as 390mph (interesting that it also states the wing was 167 square feet) and it noted that the plane was in production. Reports of 113's encountered and shot down were listed throughout the early years of the war.

    The remaining twelve He 100D-1c fighters were used to form Heinkel's Marienehe factory defense unit, flown by factory test pilots. They replaced the earlier He 112's that were used for the same purpose, and the 112's were later sold off. At this early stage in the war there were no bombers venturing that far into Germany, and it appears that the unit never saw action. The eventual fate of the D-1's remains unknown.

    http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/he100.html

    :)
     
  9. DAVIDICUS

    DAVIDICUS Member

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    Mosin,

    The topic as set out by you concerned "planes that were experimental and never saw action."

    The P-80 never saw action. It was deployed right beforen the end of the war but never saw combat (action).

    Perhaps it doesn't fit the second requirement of your topic, "experimental."
     
  10. Mosin

    Mosin Member

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    Yeah that was my idea but now that I think about it your right
    Sorry :(
     
  11. Jank

    Jank Member

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    507 mph. That's a screamer.

    Not sure what i would pick. I'll be back.
     
  12. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    1) Avro 684 Stratosphere Bomber- planned aircraft, a modified lancaster with a predicted ceiling of 50,300ft

    2) High speed lancaster- only a project, never flew or made but a predicted top speed of 350mph gove or take a bit..........

    3) don't know yet...........
     
  13. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    Max speed was about 540kmh from only 960hp ~ 335mph. Most places list the intended armament as being 1x30mm and 2x20mm but i think it would be more probable to have 1x20mm and 2x12.7mm instead.

    Another choice of mine would be the SAI 207/403 lightweight fighter. Only 750hp but 648kmp ~ 400mph speed and excellent handling.
     
  14. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Here are the aircraft that I wish had seen service:

    1. Messerschmitt Me P.1101
    2. Blohm Voss Bv-155
    3. Henschell Hs-132
    4. Messerschmitt Me-263
    5. Messerschmitt Me-309
    6. Focke Wulf Ta-183
    7. Bell XP-83
    8. Northrop XP-56

    Sorry I know that this list is more then 3 but I could not help myself. I really do wish these had atleast seen a little service so that we may have been able to see what they could really do.
     
  15. Mosin

    Mosin Member

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    Good list Im changing it to all you want (In reason) The ones Im gonna add are the messerschmitt 264 and the japanese reppu
    Ill be back later and see what all has been picked. I never heard of the messerschmitt 309 (im gonna go to MSN search now)
     
  16. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Type: Single-seat fighter
    Origin: Messerscmitt AG
    Models: V1 and V2
    First Flight: June 1942
    Service Delivery: None
    Final Delivery: None



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Engine:
    Model: Daimler-Benz DB 605B
    Type: Inverted V12 liquid-cooled
    Horsepower: 1,475

    Dimensions:
    Wing span: 11.04m (36 ft. 2¾ in.)
    Length: 9.46m (31 ft. ½ in.)
    Height: 3.45m (11 ft. 3 in.)
    Wing Surface Area: N/A
    Weights: (V1)
    Empty: 3530kg (7,783 lbs.)
    Maximum: 4250kg (9,371 lbs.)

    Performance:
    Maximum Speed: 733km/h (455 mph)
    Initial climb: NA
    Range: N/A
    Service Ceiling: N/A

    Armament: (V4)
    Four 13mm Machine Guns
    Two 20mm Cannon
    Two 30mm Cannon

    Avionics:
    N/A


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comments:
    The 309 was originally designed to be the definitive successor to the 109. Innovative features included a pressurized cockpit, tricycle landing gear, and a retractable radiator. However, the 309 could be out turned by the Bf 109G and was judged inferior to the Fw 190D and never reached production. The Me 609 was to be a twinned version similiar to the P-82.
     

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  17. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    cirtainly looks good..............
     
  18. MP-Willow

    MP-Willow Member

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    Saco, MAINE!!!!
    The Me 309 I think was not that great, and the Me 209 was well close to the bf 109k, yes?

    This has to meny good pics and that is just the Italian planes ;)
    But for the USAAC the Bat would have been good.
    The USN's New Carriers were on the way.
     
  19. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Me-209

    Messerschmitt's designation Me 209 was actually used for two separate projects during World War II. The first Me 209 was a record-setting single-engined race plane for which little or no consideration was given to adaptation for combat. The second, described below, was the Me 209-II, a proposal for an enhanced version of the highly successful Messerschmitt Bf 109 which served as the Luftwaffe's primary fighter throughout World War II.

    The second incarnation of the Me 209 project came in 1943 when Willy Messerschmitt proposed an heavily modified version of his extremely successful but aging Me 109. This Me 209 would compete against Focke-Wulf's high performance Fw 190D-9 and Ta 152 fighters. Like these enhanced versions of Kurt Tank's design, the new Me 209 would share most of its airframe with a proven model, in this case the Me 109G. This marked a departure from the first failed Me 209 and later Me 309 projects which had proposed completely new designs.

    Unfortunately for the design team, the Me 209's proposed DB 603 engine was in short supply and they were forced to use the Jumo 213E engine which offered inferior performance. The Me 209 featured a new tail section, broad-track landing gear, a taller tail, and an annular radiator which gave the engine a superficial resemblance to a radial powerplant. As with the original 209 project, however, successive modifications undermined the original purpose of the plane, in this case to build a superior fighter as similar to the existing Me 109G as possible.

    As the project progressed, increasingly cumbersome designations signalled the Me 209's evolution from a simple, enhanced version of the Bf 109 to a progressively incompatible airframe. The Me 209 V5 featured armament of one MK 108 and two MG 131 in the wingroots. The V6 was the first version to be converted to use the Jumo 213 engine and had MG 151/20 guns instead of the MG 131. The Me 209H V1 was a high-altitude variant with extended wings and reverted to the DB 603.

    Despite this proliferation of variants however, the program met a swift end when the Me 209 V5 prototype first flew in late 1944. It was 50 km/h (31 mph) slower than the already-available Fw 190D, however, and offered no improvement in handling characteristics. After its disappointing show, the Me 209 project was cancelled and with it ended Messerschmitt's last attempt to build a high-performance piston engine fighter.

    General characteristics
    Crew: one, pilot
    Length: 9.74 m (31 ft 11 in)
    Wingspan: 10.95 m (35 ft 11 in)
    Height: 4.00 m (13 ft 1 in)
    Wing area: 17.2 m² (185 ft²)
    Empty: 3,339 kg (7,346 lb)
    Loaded: 4,085 kg (8,987 lb)
    Maximum takeoff: kg ( lb)
    Powerplant: 1x Db 603G, 1,397 kW (1,900 hp)

    Performance
    Maximum speed: 678 km/h (423 mph)
    Range: 600 km (374 miles)
    Service ceiling: 11,000 m (36,080 ft)
    Rate of climb: m/min ( ft/min)
    Wing loading: 238 kg/m² (49 lb/ft²)
    Power/Mass: 0.36 kW/kg (0.22 hp/lb)

    Armament
    1x 30 mm MK 108 cannon
    2x 13 mm MG 131 machine guns

    Other designs derived from the Me-109 were the

    Me-109Z

    Me-109TL

    Me-309 which was covered in earlier post

    Me-409

    The Me 409 design was similar in concept to the Bf 109Z, except that the fuselages of the Me 209 high-altitude fighter were used, and the new wing that had been designed for the Me 155. The project was cancelled in 1944.


    Me-509


    Me-609

    The Messerschmitt Me 609 was a short-lived project which joined two fuselages of the Me 309 fighter prototype together to form a heavy fighter. The project was initiated in response to a 1941 RLM requirement for a new Zerstörer (heavy fighter) to replace the Bf 110 that would use a minimum of development time and new parts. Messerschmitt's response was the Me 609, which would use the failed Me 309 project to form the basis of the new fighter. The company had actually contemplated numerous twin-fuselage adaptations of its Bf 109 line including the Bf 109Z (which joined two Bf 109s) and the Me 409 (which used two Me 209 aircraft).

    The Me 609 would have joined the two Me 309 fuselages with a new center wing section into which the two inboard wheels of the landing gear would retract. The Me 609 kept the Me 309's tricycle undercarriage which resulted in an ungainly 6-six wheel arrangement. The Me 609 would have had its cockpit in the port fuselage, the starboard begin smoothed over.

    The finished project would have been used in both the heavy-fighter and high-speed bomber roles, but by the time designs were being ironed out, the revolutionary Me 262 negated the need for further piston-engined fighter design.

    Although its cobbled-together appearance might lead one to suspect this doubling of existing airframes was a the move of a desperate design team, it should be noted that the North American P-82 Twin Mustang proved the efficacy of such an aircraft in Korea, where its superior speed and range made it one of the last piston-engined fighters to fight for the U.S. Air Force.

    General characteristics
    Crew: one, pilot
    Length: 9.72 m (31 ft 11 in)
    Wingspan: 15.75 m (52 ft 6 in)
    Height: 3.43 m (11 ft 3 in)
    Wing area: m² ( ft²)
    Empty: 5,247 kg (11,660 lb)
    Loaded: 6,534 kg (14,520 lb)
    Maximum takeoff: kg ( lb)
    Powerplant: 2x Daimler-Benz DB 603, kW ( hp) each

    Performance
    Maximum speed: 760 km/h (472 mph)
    Range: km ( miles)
    Service ceiling: m ( ft)
    Rate of climb: m/min ( ft/min)
    Wing loading: kg/m² ( lb/ft²)
    Power/Mass: kW/kg ( hp/lb)

    Armament
    2x 30 mm MK 103 cannons
    2x 30 mm MK 108 cannons
    500 kg (1,100 lb) of bombs
     

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  20. Mosin

    Mosin Member

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    Thanks for all the great photos and specs deradler :D
     
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