What plane do you wish had sawservice

[Anonymous]

Picked this up on another board.

Schmetterling Hs-117 was another matter. It was already in production at the end of the war and post war soviet tests revealed it worked like a charm reaching all its design goals.

Its said to have out manuevered anything in the sky at that time. Given that it was simple radio guided , optically tracked system with a speed of around 600 mph , this should not come as a surprise. Soviets dropped this model too [R-105] due to the threat moving from piston bombers at 250-350mph and 25-32,000 ft right up to supersonic fighters and bombers flying at 50-60,000 ft, which Hs-117 could not deal with.

The HS117 is discussed in todays "Wings over the Word/Wings of the Luftwaffe" which covered the various German missiles and rockets. It was guided by a team of two, one using an optical system to track the missile, and another using a joystick to guide it according to instructions from the first. Over 80 test launches, including firings at actual Allied bombers were conducted and not one successful hit was scored on test or enemy targets. Tests began in late 1942 and it was abandon in 1944. It had to detonate within 50 feet of the target to have a good chance of scoring a kill.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler, I think, RG is right.
While it is true that TV-guidiance are technically possible, it was (as far as I know) never even considered a solution for the SAM-guidiance.

I am not denying that fact. I have repeated over and over that it was only technically possible and that it was not likely.

But you very clearly implied that you thought they could. Go back and read what you originally wrote.

I know exactly what I read, you just choose not to understand what I am writing. I have said that it was technically possible but not likely.

 

[delcyros]

The guidiance of the Hs-Schmetterling, that you describe, RG, can be confirmed in varoius sources. It was the main guidiance procedure up to the general SAM compare test at september 1944. Transmitted by FuG 230 "Kehl" and received by the FuG 203 "Straßburg". By that time it was considered well enough for subsonic missiles, like Enzian, Hs-Schmetterling and F-25. For faster ones (F-55, C-2W and R-I/III) it was estimated not statisfying, leading to the development of acustic/infrared and passive radar homing guidiances for these rockets. As far as I know, this did only happen on a very few prototype tests (C-2W-10,R-III) but never come to operational use. I would like to read that book. I suspect they used a valid US source of these missiles, a 4 pages report of excamination of C-2W (+additional papers of other SAM) in:
OP1666, "German Explosive Ordenance, Vol.1"
It´s worth a look. However, there is some evidence that they hit target planes (few airplanes (He-177 for demonstrations), most target objects have been BV-246 "Hagelkorn" with heading controll device and automatic level adjustion and other "drones" resp. Flakzielgeräte).

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Were there even any actual operational uses of SAM's during WW2 against an enemy? I dont think so but I am not sure.

 

[delcyros]

This is a good question. I tried to find it out, but you can quite often find (try wasserfall +ewm at google) that around 50 (different SAM models) have been used with average succes against bombers. However, if you dig deeeper, you can trace it back to Lusar, Die deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des zweiten Weltkrieges, (Munich 1959). and Hahn, Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres (?,?). From both, Lusar is more reasonable, since he also was member in the SAM developing project (with even an own but discarded SAM-project in 1943). But in general, Lusar is not a very reliable source, actually I do not like him in terms of (not) referring to independent sources. Beside of this we have the statements of Speer and Gröger, which are in my opinion valid but questionable (not prooven). The US report denie any operational use of any SAM by Germany in ww2. They do name the guidiance as the reason for this. If you ask me what I personally think, than I must admit that I don´t know. There is a possibilty but a very low probability for this. The question what effect the massive use of hundreds or even thousends of SAM would have gainst bombers is rather hypothetical than anything else. I do believe (but cannot proof) that a reliable system would be ready (in numbers) not earlier than 1946. Even with Speers statements that he should have favoured the C-2W instead of the A-4 is very wishful. The A-4 was far more ahead in development than the C-2W was.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have heard of accounts of Wasserfall use but none of them were confirmed. I can believe that on a few rare accounts they may have been used unsuccessfully though.

 

[MP-Willow]

With all this talk on systems would lifting the ban on rockets and jets changed the war?

From reading the 105mm guns would have been frightful. Think of them on invasion beaches or say the Eastern frount?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ban on rockets and jets?

 

[cheddar cheese]

I was wondering the same?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

During war I have never heard of a ban on conventional weapons.

 

[MP-Willow]

Ok I thought that He had a ban on Rocket and jet development? Maybe it was in the late thirties?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Who Hitler? he never had such a ban.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

quite the opposite in fact........

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There was quite a large program however he could not keep his fingers out of it and let the people who knew what they were doing do there job.

 

[Mosin]

Maybe he didnt ban the jet development ,but he did stop all projects early in the war that wouldnt immediatly effect the war effort.
That was changed by late 41 early 42 but I think that if he hadnt they would have had the V1,V 2 rockets and the messerchmitt 262 by nov,dec 43 . A lot earlier. Now this is just what ive read im still reading up on what the air and experimental policies were in hitlers germany.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the main thing is that Hitler and his cronies got involved period. If he had not done so, the Germans may have developed better things than that.

 

[MP-Willow]

Thanks all. I agree that if Hitler had stayed out of the Armies way they gould have done a lot better. Also the development would have gone smoother. Think of all the nasty things they could have come up with. Or even just if he would have not had his obsession with dive bombers.

As for a plane I wish would have flown, it is a big Mig-4 I think?

 

[MP-Willow]

After a little reading it might not be a Mig-4 that did not make it to the war, but the russians did have some good thoughts. They just did not ned to produce there own stuff, they had P-40s, and A-20, even B-25s and Hurricains. To go with the home designs they did have

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the same thing goes for the Russians. Stalin and his Commie goons had there hands all over everything and no one was allowed to think and develop for themselves without there stamp of approval.

 

[plan_D]

On the contrary, Adler, the Soviet Iron Fist relaxed immensely in many areas of development. After the early disasters of 1941-'42, Stalin relaxed his thinking to allow his designers and military men come up with many crazy and bizarre ideas. This allowed for the vast array of drawing board designs and mock up models in the Soviet Union.

I could post many tank designs that were drawn up in the Soviet Union, some never went past the drawing board, others became prototypes. The only real mistake made by Soviet Russia that was all Stalin's fault due to his intervention was the turning of the Soviet Armies to East Prussia instead of pressing straight on to Berlin, in 1944.

Sure, all designs required Stalin's approval to be manufactured but there were many designs to choose from. Hitler was involved every step of the way...