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Why didn't the Fw190 pilots being chased across the channel not just turn around and blast those pesky Typhoons out of the sky? When your fantasy combat starts with one plane(your favourite) behind the other (Typhoon) and about to open fire I do believe you are loading the dice ever so slightly against the Typhoon.Here is the difference in the real world. If a Typhoon pilot was attacked from behind by a Fw 190, he really had no recourse except to try to skid and side-slip to avoid being shot until the Fw passed him. It will be very dangerous because the Fw 190 with it's large number of heavy guns has a much faster roll rate and can react very quickly to most of what the Typhoon pilot can do. The Typhoon pilot can try to turn but he has no advantage and his roll to bank will be anticipated by the Fw 190 pilot if he's paying attention.
View attachment 522542http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg
Consider this famous roll rate chart, note which aircraft appears at the bottom of it.
If a P-40L pilot was attacked in the same way by a Fw 190, so long as he saw it coming, he could easily out-turn it (if he doesn't see it coming he'll probably get torn to pieces by those 4 x 20mm guns). At higher speed, i.e. in a dive, (350 mph or faster) he will have a similar or better roll rate so can react just as quickly. Same for a Spitfire or a P-51. He has less chance of stalling than the 190 so he can get away with trying more things to evade.
If the situation is reversed, with the Fw 190 being the one pursued, both aircraft (Typhoon and P-40L) can follow it in a dive, but the P-40 still retains superior turning ability and can match it in high speed roll, therefore can pull lead much quicker. The P-40L can catch it when they hit sea level or at whatever point the Fw tries to straighten out or turn. The Fw pilot is in trouble, his best bet is to try to outrun the P-40 but the latter has pretty long range guns which can sometimes score hits in a long chase. Fw is well armored though and can roll very well, he has a reasonable chance of escape.
The Typhoon has the advantage of much bigger guns and is more likely to destroy or disable the Fw with a quick burst, but is also more likely to lose the Fw as it twists and rolls because the 190s roll rate is between 3 and 5 times as fast depending on the speed.
Against a Bf 109 the Typhoon pilot is even more challenged. It might be able to dive away (depending on the 109 variant) but probably not. It can't try to turn because it will be instantly owned, and it is out-rolled at all speeds by a wide margin. The P-40L by contrast can out turn the Bf 109 and will usually be able to out-roll it especially at higher speeds. Dive speed is basically equivalent, the best option for the 109 pilot is to execute a climbing turn. If the P-40L has sufficient power it can follow it in the turn at least part of the way and fire off a burst. Four 0.5 guns may be a little weak for shooting down a 190 but it's plenty against a 109.
Pbehn said:Why didn't the Fw190 pilots being chased across the channel not just turn around and blast those pesky Typhoons out of the sky?
When your fantasy combat starts with one plane(your favourite) behind the other (Typhoon) and about to open fire I do believe you are loading the dice ever so slightly against the Typhoon.
Speed, rate of climb and operating in radar controlled airspace for three. You cannot make any case for the P40 being better that the Typhoon when it is so much slower.High deflection angles ... Typhoon has good firepower to make a quick snapshot count, but less maneuverability to pull lead or evade same as the chase scenario... and handling probably an issue too. What else am I missing?
S
I really wonder if people read that memo all the way through or stop after it says they ran 70-72In of MAP, see what they want to see and run with it.
Speed, rate of climb and operating in radar controlled airspace for three. You cannot make any case for the P40 being better that the Typhoon when it is so much slower.
Typhoons generally did not intercept Jabos its almost impossible, they chased them and shot them down, despite the FW having a big advantage in roll rate. You have an ideological hierarchy with US fighters at the top German fighters in the middle. Your post about the Beaufighter shows it, apparently some claims are matched by records you say.It sounds like you are talking about interception, but once an interception is made, one way or another aircraft are going to get into the ballpark of a shooting solution right?
Granted the interception is a different phase of the fight, maybe the Typhoon does have an advantage there. But that also depends on a lot of other factors unrelated to individual aircraft performance - pilots spotting targets, radio communication, radar as you said, relative altitude of antagonists or their ostensible charges (like escorted bombers) and so on.
Against a Bf 109 the Typhoon pilot is even more challenged. It might be able to dive away (depending on the 109 variant) but probably not. It can't try to turn because it will be instantly owned, and it is out-rolled at all speeds by a wide margin.
Typhoons generally did not intercept Jabos its almost impossible, they chased them and shot them down, despite the FW having a big advantage in roll rate.
You have an ideological hierarchy with US fighters at the top German fighters in the middle. Your post about the Beaufighter shows it, apparently some claims are matched by records you say.
Per British testing, in the initial dive the 190 and perhaps the 109 will pull away from the Typhoon, but the British fighter will catch both of them in a prolonged dive.
I haven't come across a test between the Typhoon and the 109, but the AFDU test of the Tempest V noted that the turning circle of the Tempest vs. the Typhoon was "Very Similar. Any difference appears to be in favour of the Typhoon." And later noted in turning vs. a Bf 109G "The Tempest is slightly better, the Me.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall."
So we can infer that if they had tested the Typhoon Ib vs. the 109G, it probably would not have been 'instantly owned'.
1935 - 1937
----- Cr 32
----- I-15
----- Ki-27
1938 - 1939
----- Hawker Hurricane Mk I
----- I-16
----- P-36
1939 - 1940
----- Bf 109E
----- Spitfire I
----- Hawker Hurricane MK II
1940 - 1941
----- Bf 109F
----- Spitfire V
----- A6M
1941 - 1942
----- Fw 190A
----- Spitfire V
----- Ki 43
1942 - 1943
----- Fw 190A
----- Spitfire IX
----- La 5 FN
1943 - 1944
----- Yak 9
----- P-51B/C/D
----- F4U-1
1944 - 1945
----- Yak 3
----- Spit XIV or XXII
----- Me 262
Now you are adding "gondolas" to justify an argument, it is complete BS. Yes the gondolas affected performance but so did the Typhoons cannon, carrying armament affects performance, it is this ridiculous whataboutery that drives me nutz. You most certainly are wrong because you are now talking about Bf109s intercepting bombers with gondola mounted cannon while Bf 109s carried cannon when acting as escorts where combat went down to church spire height. When quoting roll rates for the Bf109 are the wings full of ammunition?I think you ought to look a little deeper into that one. It might be closer with a G-6 carrying gun gondolas, but most variants of the Bf 109 would turn rings around a Typhoon. Bf 109F has a wing loading of around 36 or 37 lbs / sq ft, G-2 and G-4 are similar maybe 38. Still better than a Typhoon.
I could be wrong but in Northwest Europe I believe gun pod carrying 109s would mostly be up at high altitude going after the heavy bombers.
I think you ought to look a little deeper into that one. It might be closer with a G-6 carrying gun gondolas, but most variants of the Bf 109 would turn rings around a Typhoon. Bf 109F has a wing loading of around 36 or 37 lbs / sq ft, G-2 and G-4 are similar maybe 38. Still better than a Typhoon.
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As I understand it Hawkers and the RAE in the early years considered thick wings to be essential to retain the turning performance of bi planes as much as was possible, the contrary school of thought was that if you give 30MPH to your opponent with thick wings how do you get him to fight, except on his terms, from this developed the boom and zoom strategy.Many British designers liked those thick wings because they were high lift. )
It seems that the 109G in the trials vs. the Tempest had the under-wing gondolas. My gut tells me a Typhoon dogfighting a 109 (especially above 10-15,000 feet) would probably have been bad idea.
But again, going about things in an indirect way re: AFDU reports ...
The Typhoon Ib was (if anything) slightly better in the turn than the Tempest V.
The Tempest V was (if anything) slightly better in the turn than the Tempest II.
The Tempest II was always able to out-turn the Thunderbolt II (P-47D).
USAAF Thunderbolts were confident in scrapping with Luftwaffe fighters at low level, were they not?
Now you are adding "gondolas" to justify an argument, it is complete BS. Yes the gondolas affected performance but so did the Typhoons cannon, carrying armament affects performance, it is this ridiculous whataboutery that drives me nutz. You most certainly are wrong because you are now talking about Bf109s intercepting bombers with gondola mounted cannon while Bf 109s carried cannon when acting as escorts where combat went down to church spire height. When quoting roll rates for the Bf109 are the wings full of ammunition?
Interesting list, but there seem to be some issues.
There is some overlap, obviously.
Somehow the Bf 109F is better than the Spitfire V in 1940-1941, but doesn't make the top 3 in 1941-1942, while the Spitfire V keeps its 2nd top billing.
The Spitfire XIV arrives at much the same time as the P-51B/C, ahead of the D. The Spitfire XIV > P-51D. Except in range, obviously.
Also, the Spitfire XIV >>>>>> Yak 3. Or Yak 9. Or F4U-1.
Whether the Fw 190A is better than the Spitfire IX, or not, probably depends mostly on the altitude you are talking about. They were pretty close.
Rein (reign) what in, compare the low level fighter Typhoon's standard armament to your supposedly specifically anti bomber Bf 109.Reign it in there Francis. The Gondola thing is "a thing". I didn't make it up. I think they were removable too? I'm not sure I'm not really a 109 guy. But I do know they were made for extra firepower for killing bombers - four engined heavies in the West and Il-2s in the East. They stuck out in the slipstream a lot and they were heavy.
Maybe somebody more versed on 109s can chime in.