michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
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Yes that is why I was thinking lengthening the fuselage at the rear might have a fairly substantial counterbalancing effect dispite only adding a little weight, the further back the tail is the more counterbalancing lever affect.It is all about movement arms, think kids teeter-totter/see-saw ride. the further away from the CG the more effect the same weight has.
And any added weight as ballast affects climb and turn and landing (stall) speed.
...or...increase the length of the area between the base of the windshield and the firewall.
I've circled it in the picture Ivan posted earlier....
Typhoon did not get sorted out until the Sea Fury.D
Apologies for leaving that up so long.
It was a partial thought, but I got sidetracked halfway through it....why I ended up writing "nevermind".
Reading which plane was better P40 or Typhoon.
This would be simple for me !
It was the plane that was easier to service and get out to the fight.
Had fewer quirky issues, easy enough to train new pilots to fly.
Their performances were similar enough, both expandable platforms.
Typhoon did not get sorted out until the Sea Fury.
Most of its problems were with the engine.
Finally became a competitive Naval and land based Fighter.
Just seems nonsensical that the P40Q program was not expanded.
The bubble canopy would have helped in SA if nothing else was not changed.
So what it was not an high altitude Mustang
It would have had a better flight envelop and maybe save a few more pilots.
D
What was "not sorted out" about the Tempest? As well, what was the point of continuing the P-40Q program when the P-51 was already available and better in almost every measurable category?Typhoon did not get sorted out until the Sea Fury.
Most of its problems were with the engine.
Finally became a competitive Naval and land based Fighter.
Just seems nonsensical that the P40Q program was not expanded.
The bubble canopy would have helped in SA if nothing else was not changed.
However the Typhoon became an excellent ground support plane in ways that the P-40 could not match.
So what it was not an high altitude Mustang
It would have had a better flight envelop and maybe save a few more pilots.
Reading which plane was better P40 or Typhoon.
This would be simple for me !
It was the plane that was easier to service and get out to the fight.
Had fewer quirky issues, easy enough to train new pilots to fly.
Their performances were similar enough, both expandable platforms.
Just seems nonsensical that the P40Q program was not expanded.
I know its not fashionable to point this out, but the Typhoon was a good match for the 190 A8 at altitude and was a lot better at lower altitude. For the RAF the issue was that at altitude the Spit IX was a lot better than the Typhoon. But its wrong to say that the Typhoon was outmatched by the Fw190. The 109 did have a significant advantage at altitude that is certainly correct.The main problem with both the P-40 and the Typhoon is that they had terrible performance at high altitude. All German Me-109 and Fw-190 marks easily outperformed them at altitude. Most combat in NW Europe took place at high altitude, because Allied heavy bombers flew at high altitude. Thus, as fighters, both planes are equal failures.
Mustangs, Spit XII, Spit IX and Mosquitos were all used with some success against the V1With thousands of P-40's and Typhoons built, something had to be done with them other than high altitude combat, which they were really bad at. Thus, attempts were made to convert them to ground attack planes. The Typhoon, with its heavy wing construction, excelled at this. It could carry a bomb/rocket load that the P-40 couldn't match. It was also very fast at sea level. In fact, no Allied or German plane could catch it down low. It was the only plane that could intercept the German V-1 rockets.
No correlation at all. There is no rule that says if you have a low wing loading then you cannot fight at altitude.Where the P-40 excelled was against Japan. Japanese planes, with with their Low Wing Loading, which gave unparalleled maneuverability at low to mid altitudes, also mitigated against it at higher altitudes.
These tactics were not developed by General Chenault. They were common practice in WW2 by the Luftwaffe as they knew that the 109 and 190 couldn't turn with the Spit and Hurricane. They were also standard tactics in WW1 by Spad XIII and SE5a fighters as these had the strength and speed to use them and they were not great in a turning dogfight.The P-40 (as well as every US Fighter), had a more powerful engine and a heavier, stronger air-frame. This gave them, respectively, a higher service ceiling and superior dive performance. This enable the "dive and swoop" tactics that the Japanese were never able to counter throughout the war. These tactics were developed by General Chenault and the Flying Tigers.
The main reason why the majority of the early Japanese fighters (Ki43 and Zero) found it difficult to outmanoeuvre the allied fighters was because their controls became difficult even impossible to move at high speed. This was due to the air pressure on the control surfaces, it had nothing to do with the low wing loading. Me109's had a similar but not quite as severe issue for the same reason. It's a very serious mistake to assume that the Japanese didn't learn from their mistakes. The Ki84, Ki100, Raiden and Shinden were all aircraft that were at least as good as anything else in the air. Poor training, negligible fuel reserves and poor workmanship making the aircraft less effective, played a major role in reducing the threat to the allied forces.Thus, their fantastic victory to loss rate. The P-40 would use its higher service ceiling to gain an altitude advantage. They would then swoop down on their opponent in a single firing pass, and then use the momentum of the dive to regain altitude. The Japanese couldn't out dive them, and because their Low Wing Loading gave them inferior high altitude maneuverability, they couldn't out turn the P-40 in its dive either. As long as the P-40 (and all US fighters) did not get caught at low altitude or in a turning dog-fight, they would usually win.
Two brief comments here.So, the short answer to the question is: in NW Europe, both the P-40 and Typhoon were equally bad. However the Typhoon became an excellent ground support plane in ways that the P-40 could not match. In the Pacific, the P-40 was an effective fighter, so long as it used the right tactics. The Typhoons were never tested in the Pacific.
That'd be the XP-60, which first flew a couple of months after the P-40F.
The Typhoon, with its heavy wing construction, excelled at this. It could carry a bomb/rocket load that the P-40 couldn't match. It was also very fast at sea level. In fact, no Allied or German plane could catch it down low. It was the only plane that could intercept the German V-1 rockets.
Where the P-40 excelled was against Japan. Japanese planes, with with their Low Wing Loading, which gave unparalleled maneuverability at low to mid altitudes, also mitigated against it at higher altitudes. The P-40 (as well as every US Fighter), had a more powerful engine and a heavier, stronger air-frame. This gave them, respectively, a higher service ceiling and superior dive performance. This enable the "dive and swoop" tactics that the Japanese were never able to counter throughout the war. These tactics were developed by General Chenault and the Flying Tigers. Thus, their fantastic victory to loss rate. The P-40 would use its higher service ceiling to gain an altitude advantage. They would then swoop down on their opponent in a single firing pass, and then use the momentum of the dive to regain altitude. The Japanese couldn't out dive them, and because their Low Wing Loading gave them inferior high altitude maneuverability, they couldn't out turn the P-40 in its dive either. As long as the P-40 (and all US fighters) did not get caught at low altitude or in a turning dog-fight, they would usually win.
Remember, there are always engineering trade-offs when designing an airplane. The Laws of Physics tell us that the factors that make a plane maneuverable at low altitude will make it less maneuverable at high altitude. An engine optimized for low level performance will mitigate against it at higher altitudes. There are also speed vs maneuverability trade-offs as well as range vs weight trade-offs. An aircraft designer can either design an all-purpose plane that does many things average-ish, but does not excel at anything (P-51), or he can design a plane optimized for a specific role (F-6 Hellcat). It all depends on what the end-user tells the designer what it wants. The military try to envision future wars and a plane's role in that war. They will then give specifications to the designer as to what they want the plane to do, and the designer will make it. This is a long process, so if the military get their initial specifications wrong, it will take years to correct. The F-4 Phantom is an example of a plane that was used in a role that the military hadn't anticipated, dog-fighting with lighter, more maneuverable fighters, rather than being a stand-off, air-to-air missile platform. It took years to overcome this screw-up, and to develop the F-15 and F-16 to overcome it. An example of a purpose built plane done right is the Spitfire. The RAF envisioned a certain role for the plane and the designers build it exactly for this role. The RAF correctly foresaw the Battle of Britain and built a fighter to fit this exact scenario, a short-range, high-speed, high-altitude point defense fighter for use over Southern England. The Spitfire was designed and optimized for this specific role. Thus, it excelled. It was not as successful in other roles, such as bomber escort, where it was handicapped by its poor range.
One problem with P-40Q development was that in 1944 "piston & prop" interest was waning. The major players in this war were far more interested in developing jet technology....anyway, as someone so wisely stated at this forum many years ago, why re-invent the P-51 when it was already available.They were still test flying the thing in the spring of 1944. Production would have been a number of months away and issue to squadrons even longer.
Most P-40 squadrons were converting to P-47s or P-51s in 1944, so unless you think that pilots would be safer in a P-40Q than in a P-51C or later or a late model P-47D ????
I beg to differ.F-4, on aggregate, was the best fighter of 1960s...