Which jet was better, the Me 262 or the Gloster Meteor?

[Magnon]

Good point on the centrifugal jet engines: they were indeed the better choice that early on.

I wonder what this is based on. Never intended for front-line service?? They were working on it for 4 years straight and they knew it would be the main engine of the Me 262 since 1942.

Let me also add that the Jumo 004 was improved at the end of 1944 reaching an overhaul time of 25 hours which was not all that bad. Also it would get a regulator like on the BMW 003 which would take care of most of the accidental flame outs.
So we should also take this into account when judging the Me 262: the 1944 or the 1945 version?

Kris

I think that the engineers did a great job within the constraints of the resources they were allocated. They were starved of nickel required to produce a durable engine.

Aluminium-coated mild steel for the flame tubes was very innovative, but also very limited in terms of the conditions which were necessarily thrown at it.

The statement "never intended for front line service" was based on the fact that the engineers would have wanted better materials and more time to sort out the engine, but time was running out.

 

[Civettone]

Agreed. I am however talking about the hollow blades in the turbine. Many believe these were standard for the 004B but they were only introduced for the B-3 (or B-4 in Anglosax sources).

I also forgot to mention that most of the flame outs were caused by the Riedel starter which was too weak. As such it has nothing to do with the turbojet engine itself.

Kris

 

[Magnon]

Magnon - ALL jet engines are sensitive to AoA changes - some moreso than others... restart not always fun either.

Further to this topic:
American raiders: the race to ... - Google Books

"...then I did something stupid. After I went across the airfield on the last pass, I pulled the damn jet up and rolled it. The reason I said it was stupid, it just didn't add a damn thing to the demonstration and I was risking an airplane on top of that."
"The Jumo 004 engine didn't like radical air-intake changes. Doing a maneuver like that could upset the air flow and have it flame out. The Me 262 was not a dogfighting airplane like the F 86 was later on. So Holt and I landed after that last pass. No one ever said anything to me about my impromptu maneuver. But you know how it is - you remember your mistakes in life for ever and ever..."​

How can a fighter type a/c not perform aerobatics?

Pulling the jet up and rolling it was likely to cause a flame out? It would seem like a fairly mild manoeuvre to me...


On the other hand, the Meteor could perform some fancy tricks at air shows:

...Another "claim to fame" was the Meteor's ability to perform the "Żurabatic Cartwheel", a new aerobatics manoeuvre, named after the Gloster acting Chief Test Pilot, first accomplished in the Gloster Meteor G-7-1 prototype at the 1951 Farnborough Air Show where the Meteor, due to its unique location of widely-set engines could have individual engines throttled back and forward to achieve a seemingly stationary vertical cartwheel. Many Meteor pilots would go on to "prove their mettle" by attempting the same feat...[11]​

Gloster Meteor - eNotes.com Reference

...While test flying the Meteor, Jan [Zurakowski] also developed the first new aerobatic manoeuvre in about 20 years termed the "Zurabatic Cartwheel". The story goes that sometimes during exceedingly tedious "lectures" and wrangling meetings with the engineers, his mind would drift to aerobatics. A new test of the Meteor ground-attack version involved carrying four bombs far out on wings of the Meteor. Jan realized that with the weight of the engines so far out from centre on the Meteor, that this would cause some interesting effects if one engine was cut while the other was at full power. Taking his slide rule from his pocket, he spun up some numbers and concluded that something unheard of might be accomplished.
He soon put his theory to the test in the air. With a late model Meteor, loaded with these bombs, Jan put the nose down at full power, then pulled to the vertical. Nearing zero airspeed he simultaneously cut one engine, and kicked full rudder into the dead one, leaving the other at full howling power. The asymmetric thrust, coupled with the inertia provided by the bomb weight so far out on the wings, made the Meteor rotate on its side through a complete one and one-half turns, ending up doing a cartwheel laterally and pointing down at the ground. Needless to say this was a real crowd-pleaser and gained "Zura" real fame...​

ADA-Arrow Pilots:Jan Zurakowski

It would seem to me to involve some quite significant variations in angle of attack, no? Hardly the sort of time you'd want to have a flame out..

Regards,

Magnon

Attachment: Google Image Result for http://www.mysliwcy.pl/ksiega/cartwheel.jpg

 

[Magnon]

There is a parallel thread which some might be interested in:

http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=451&page=4

I'm a BIG believer that the Me-262 was the forerunner of several generations of great jet fighters. It had swept wings, was fast, and hit very hard when everything worked.

However, the engines were a roll of the dice, the guns jammed, and it was anything but a dogfighter against the best of the piston fighter generation that was fielded about the time the Me-262 was fielded.

All the piston people had to do was fly around the Me-262 base and wait for it to run out of fuel ... and shoot it down on approach.

If it slowed down to dogfight, it was shot down. If it jammed, it was ineffective. When [it] ran out of fuel it was vulnerable.

These are all characteristics of many early jets, but the 262 had them all.

Nevertheless, it was a wonder. A flawed wonder, but a wonder when it worked well and was flown well.

I consider it as a footnote in WWII effectiveness, but a pioneer in jet fighter development that was apparent into the 4th generation of jet fighters.

Imagine an Me 262 with reliable turbojets and non-jamming armament and 1.5 hours of fuel!

Didn't happen, but COULD have. Even as it DID exist, it was a game changer, but that was not sharply apparent at the time due to limited numbers, fuel shortages, gun jamming, engine shortages, and inability to take battle damage.​

GregP​

http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=451&page=7

I'd like to add that the very subject of the development and operational use of the early jet aircraft is still controversial and not so easy to research.

There are long standing myths that, despite several debunking efforts, find scores of supporters – a good number of them in not so good faith – who seem to be bent on keeping the whole matter confused, for reasons only the Almighty knows…

Unfortunately, the Me-262 seems to be on the receiving end of quite a few of these myths so much so that one gets the feeling that the 262 has become the Holy Grail of aviation and questioning any aspect of its performance envelope, operational record or – worst of all – its missed opportunity to ensure Nazi Germany's victory is tantamount to an attempt on the historical accuracy's life!

It is worth remembering that the aircraft was never supersonic, (unless in a terminal, perhaps wingless dive) and its wing sweep was never designed with a critical-mach reduction in mind, but as a quick-fix to restore the cg, following the switch from the BMW 109-003 turbojets to the heavier Junkers Jumo 109-004's.

The 262 was designed as a zerstörer, i.e. a 'destroyer', which was the German idea of the heavy fighter/interceptor, whose main purpose was to keep as may enemy bombers as possible from reaching their target.
This also explains why speed and heavy armament were paramount factors while maneuverability was not. The aircraft had not been designed to 'mix it up' with the escort and the fact that many a German "ol' hand" managed to shoot down enemy single-engine fighters, only testifies to their skills.

The aircraft proved also to be a decent reconnoiter and even the operational results of the fighter/bomber (JaBo) conversion, as well as Hitler's staunch support for such a conversion, are lately being more benignantly reconsidered by some revisionist historians.

The 262's place in aviation history and aeronautical development should not be dismissed or, even worse, pooh-poohed, but at the same time, the writing was on the wall so far as its superiority and invincibility were concerned!

Had the conflict continued into late 1945 and 1946, the appearance of the British D.H. Vampire and especially the US Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star would have redressed the balance, spelling the end of the 262's supremacy, hopelessly outclassed in terms of maneuverability, ceiling and climb rate by the Allied machines and now unable to exploit its greater speed to escape.

The performance charts testify to this and yet many a website, magazine or book is quick to point out a purported superiority of the German machine by taking out of context the results of ONE of the tests conducted by the AAF right after the end of the conflict (an often used piece of 'evidence'): "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 907 kg (2,000 lb), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter." (from wiki).
The fact that the flight envelope of the P-80A had, by then, not yet completely been explored by NACA and, most of all, the fact that at the time, in the period of economic austerity that followed the end of the conflict, the military establishment had to fight for every cent of the budget allotted and, showing an alleged technological inferiority would have, no doubt, ensured better funding, is systematically and conveniently neglected. Further evidence is that this, same tactic was later used throughout the Cold War to ensure the Department of Defense the R&D funds to develop better aircraft than the allegedly superior Soviet aircraft.

Regards,
__________________
Pete57​

Just something to think about.

Regards,

Magnon

 

[tail end charlie]

I have quoted the only part I have issue with, I dont think the 262 was designed with anything in mind apart from being a jet aeroplane and a stepping stone to something better(and same for the meteor BTW) fleets of B 17s and B24s changed things on one side while the V1 (and the 262) changed things on the other.

 

[Magnon]

I have quoted the only part I have issue with, I dont think the 262 was designed with anything in mind apart from being a jet aeroplane and a stepping stone to something better(and same for the meteor BTW) fleets of B 17s and B24s changed things on one side while the V1 (and the 262) changed things on the other.

OK. I concede you may be right on this. On the other hand, I don't think it's absolutely critical to the whole discussion.

It was certainly aimed at the zerstörer role late in the War, and necessarily so.

Regards,

Magnon

 

[Civettone]

There is a parallel thread which some might be interested in:

http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=451&page=4

I'm a BIG believer that the Me-262 was the forerunner of several generations of great jet fighters. It had swept wings, was fast, and hit very hard when everything worked.

However, the engines were a roll of the dice, the guns jammed, and it was anything but a dogfighter against the best of the piston fighter generation that was fielded about the time the Me-262 was fielded.

All the piston people had to do was fly around the Me-262 base and wait for it to run out of fuel ... and shoot it down on approach.

If it slowed down to dogfight, it was shot down. If it jammed, it was ineffective. When [it] ran out of fuel it was vulnerable.

These are all characteristics of many early jets, but the 262 had them all.

Nevertheless, it was a wonder. A flawed wonder, but a wonder when it worked well and was flown well.

I consider it as a footnote in WWII effectiveness, but a pioneer in jet fighter development that was apparent into the 4th generation of jet fighters.

Imagine an Me 262 with reliable turbojets and non-jamming armament and 1.5 hours of fuel!

Didn't happen, but COULD have. Even as it DID exist, it was a game changer, but that was not sharply apparent at the time due to limited numbers, fuel shortages, gun jamming, engine shortages, and inability to take battle damage.​

GregP​

http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=451&page=7

I'd like to add that the very subject of the development and operational use of the early jet aircraft is still controversial and not so easy to research.

There are long standing myths that, despite several debunking efforts, find scores of supporters – a good number of them in not so good faith – who seem to be bent on keeping the whole matter confused, for reasons only the Almighty knows…

Unfortunately, the Me-262 seems to be on the receiving end of quite a few of these myths so much so that one gets the feeling that the 262 has become the Holy Grail of aviation and questioning any aspect of its performance envelope, operational record or – worst of all – its missed opportunity to ensure Nazi Germany's victory is tantamount to an attempt on the historical accuracy's life!

It is worth remembering that the aircraft was never supersonic, (unless in a terminal, perhaps wingless dive) and its wing sweep was never designed with a critical-mach reduction in mind, but as a quick-fix to restore the cg, following the switch from the BMW 109-003 turbojets to the heavier Junkers Jumo 109-004's.

The 262 was designed as a zerstörer, i.e. a 'destroyer', which was the German idea of the heavy fighter/interceptor, whose main purpose was to keep as may enemy bombers as possible from reaching their target.
This also explains why speed and heavy armament were paramount factors while maneuverability was not. The aircraft had not been designed to 'mix it up' with the escort and the fact that many a German "ol' hand" managed to shoot down enemy single-engine fighters, only testifies to their skills.

The aircraft proved also to be a decent reconnoiter and even the operational results of the fighter/bomber (JaBo) conversion, as well as Hitler's staunch support for such a conversion, are lately being more benignantly reconsidered by some revisionist historians.

The 262's place in aviation history and aeronautical development should not be dismissed or, even worse, pooh-poohed, but at the same time, the writing was on the wall so far as its superiority and invincibility were concerned!

Had the conflict continued into late 1945 and 1946, the appearance of the British D.H. Vampire and especially the US Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star would have redressed the balance, spelling the end of the 262's supremacy, hopelessly outclassed in terms of maneuverability, ceiling and climb rate by the Allied machines and now unable to exploit its greater speed to escape.

The performance charts testify to this and yet many a website, magazine or book is quick to point out a purported superiority of the German machine by taking out of context the results of ONE of the tests conducted by the AAF right after the end of the conflict (an often used piece of 'evidence'): "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 907 kg (2,000 lb), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter." (from wiki).
The fact that the flight envelope of the P-80A had, by then, not yet completely been explored by NACA and, most of all, the fact that at the time, in the period of economic austerity that followed the end of the conflict, the military establishment had to fight for every cent of the budget allotted and, showing an alleged technological inferiority would have, no doubt, ensured better funding, is systematically and conveniently neglected. Further evidence is that this, same tactic was later used throughout the Cold War to ensure the Department of Defense the R&D funds to develop better aircraft than the allegedly superior Soviet aircraft.

Regards,
__________________
Pete57​

Just something to think about.

Regards,

Magnon

This is the reason I am not part of the Warbirdsforum ...

Some great people there but overall the level is not that of this forum. I think it's also where T.A. Gardner resides who distinguishes himself in advocating American superiority in every field.

In short, these comments suffer from hindsight reasoning. "The Me 262 was intended as ..." Who can say that? And at what point? Clearly the prospects of a jet fighter were different in 1941 than in 1944.
But just the same, they see the Me 262 as a fixed technology which does not evolve after April/May 1945. If the war had continued the Me 262 of mid 1945 would have been faster, stronger and more reliable. At the end of 1945 it would have been able to defeat any allied jet fighter opposing it. Able to ...

Kris

 

[Magnon]

This is the reason I am not part of the Warbirdsforum ...

Some great people there but overall the level is not that of this forum. I think it's also where T.A. Gardner resides who distinguishes himself in advocating American superiority in every field.

In short, these comments suffer from hindsight reasoning. "The Me 262 was intended as ..." Who can say that? And at what point? Clearly the prospects of a jet fighter were different in 1941 than in 1944.
But just the same, they see the Me 262 as a fixed technology which does not evolve after April/May 1945. If the war had continued the Me 262 of mid 1945 would have been faster, stronger and more reliable. At the end of 1945 it would have been able to defeat any allied jet fighter opposing it. Able to ...

Kris

Hi Kris,

If you are wanting to go down this track, I would recommend you read the Flight archive 1946 | 1485 | Flight Archive and the following pages (use the scroll arrows at the top of the page).

In reading through this myself, I noted that the following extract gives some very interesting figures for the Meteor F4 (admittedly not the F3):

...While the gas turbine has been making its spectacular debut aircraft designers have studied aerodynamic and structural problems to permit its safe and most effective utilization in fighters. The aerodynamic difficulties have been analysed and described by various authorities and are largely concerned with the effects of compressibility as the speed of sound is approached. Thus the most meticulous study of airflow is demanded of the jet-fighter designer. Aerodynamic factors inevitably affect the design of the structure, particularly of the wing, while flight at speeds of the order of 600 m.p.h. imposes severe demands on strength. Wings, fuselage, fin and tailplane must be subjected to tests simulating the most exacting conditions to be expected in flight, while horizontal surfaces, fixed and movable, must show exceptional torsional stiffness. An ultimate strength pull-out factor for the Meteor IV is 10 at 500 m.p.h., 8.5 at 550 m.p.h. and 7 at 600 m.p.h. indicated...​

Quoting from "Mechanics of Flight":

...When we reach 9 or 10 G - if we can reach 9 or 10 G - the loading on the aeroplane has become such that the structure itself is in a critical condition and may begin to show signs of breaking up. The designer has made it a little stronger than the pilot, but there would be no point in making it much stronger...​

Can we get some comparable figures for the Me 262? That would be very interesting.

Regards,

Magnon

 

[Civettone]

think this is not meant for me?


Kris

 

[Magnon]

think this is not meant for me?


Kris

For anyone in general... a figure of what G forces were factored into the Me 262 structure design would be very interesting

 

[Magnon]

The following account of an encounter between an Me 262 and a Mosquito is interesting. The Mosquito could apparently out-turn the Schwalbe, at least in this instance...

Luftwaffe: the allied intelligence files - Google Books

Regards,

Magnon

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The following account of an encounter between an Me 262 and a Mosquito is interesting. The Mosquito could apparently out-turn the Schwalbe, at least in this instance...


Regards,

Magnon

If the 262 was flying at high speed, this is meaningless.

"The radius of turn is proportional to the square of the aircraft's true airspeed. With a higher airspeed the radius of turn is larger, and with a lower airspeed the radius is smaller."

Stick and rudder 101.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If the 262 was flying at high speed, this is meaningless.

"The radius of turn is proportional to the square of the aircraft's true airspeed. With a higher airspeed the radius of turn is larger, and with a lower airspeed the radius is smaller."

Stick and rudder 101.

If I have not forgotten how to read the document even states the Me 262 was flying 100 to 120 mph faster. Shocking huh?

 

[tail end charlie]

If the 262 got on the mosquitos tail several times why didnt it reduce its speed?

 

[Civettone]

TEC, in the case of this unarmed Mosquito that would indeed have made sense. But the Me 262 pilot used standard Luftwaffe tactics based on optimal use superior speed. Also, higher speed means that the Mossie would have had less time to react. Nevertheless the Mossie pilot was able to turn every time his plane got into firing range of the Me 262.

Fact is that the Mossie was flown by a damn good pilot AND got lucky.
Kris

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If the 262 got on the mosquitos tail several times why didnt it reduce its speed?

In a jet, you just don't "slow down" easily. Jets (early jets) take a while to speed up and slow down, and this coupled with first generation pilots and the fact that the 262 didnt have speed brakes is easily explained.

 

[tail end charlie]

Much as I like the mossie I dont think being in one with a 262 on your case is the best place to be.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Much as I like the mossie I dont think being in one with a 262 on your case is the best place to be.

The 262 "could have" possibly countered the tighter turning radius by either slipping or skidding the aircraft or pulling up into the vertical and entering a high "yo-yo." This would have enabled him to gain a firing solution when he came down from the top of the maneuver.

 

[drgondog]

In short, these comments suffer from hindsight reasoning. "The Me 262 was intended as ..." Who can say that? And at what point? Clearly the prospects of a jet fighter were different in 1941 than in 1944.
But just the same, they see the Me 262 as a fixed technology which does not evolve after April/May 1945. If the war had continued the Me 262 of mid 1945 would have been faster, stronger and more reliable. At the end of 1945 it would have been able to defeat any allied jet fighter opposing it. Able to ...

Kris

Kris - I agree.

What was in the mind of the designers was go faster and hit harder - the Me 262 fulfilled that superbly. What the LW achieved was up to leadership and pilot skill.

 

[drgondog]

For anyone in general... a figure of what G forces were factored into the Me 262 structure design would be very interesting

There is no reason to speculate that the Me 262 design parameters wandered too much from 8G limit/12G ultimate without factoring Q loads due to drag rise in compressibility..