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Good point on the centrifugal jet engines: they were indeed the better choice that early on.
I wonder what this is based on. Never intended for front-line service?? They were working on it for 4 years straight and they knew it would be the main engine of the Me 262 since 1942.
Let me also add that the Jumo 004 was improved at the end of 1944 reaching an overhaul time of 25 hours which was not all that bad. Also it would get a regulator like on the BMW 003 which would take care of most of the accidental flame outs.
So we should also take this into account when judging the Me 262: the 1944 or the 1945 version?
Kris
Magnon - ALL jet engines are sensitive to AoA changes - some moreso than others... restart not always fun either.
Pulling the jet up and rolling it was likely to cause a flame out? It would seem like a fairly mild manoeuvre to me...How can a fighter type a/c not perform aerobatics?
I have quoted the only part I have issue with, I dont think the 262 was designed with anything in mind apart from being a jet aeroplane and a stepping stone to something better(and same for the meteor BTW) fleets of B 17s and B24s changed things on one side while the V1 (and the 262) changed things on the other.
I have quoted the only part I have issue with, I dont think the 262 was designed with anything in mind apart from being a jet aeroplane and a stepping stone to something better(and same for the meteor BTW) fleets of B 17s and B24s changed things on one side while the V1 (and the 262) changed things on the other.
This is the reason I am not part of the Warbirdsforum ...There is a parallel thread which some might be interested in:
http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=451&page=4
I'm a BIG believer that the Me-262 was the forerunner of several generations of great jet fighters. It had swept wings, was fast, and hit very hard when everything worked.
However, the engines were a roll of the dice, the guns jammed, and it was anything but a dogfighter against the best of the piston fighter generation that was fielded about the time the Me-262 was fielded.
All the piston people had to do was fly around the Me-262 base and wait for it to run out of fuel ... and shoot it down on approach.
If it slowed down to dogfight, it was shot down. If it jammed, it was ineffective. When [it] ran out of fuel it was vulnerable.
These are all characteristics of many early jets, but the 262 had them all.
Nevertheless, it was a wonder. A flawed wonder, but a wonder when it worked well and was flown well.
I consider it as a footnote in WWII effectiveness, but a pioneer in jet fighter development that was apparent into the 4th generation of jet fighters.
Imagine an Me 262 with reliable turbojets and non-jamming armament and 1.5 hours of fuel!
Didn't happen, but COULD have. Even as it DID exist, it was a game changer, but that was not sharply apparent at the time due to limited numbers, fuel shortages, gun jamming, engine shortages, and inability to take battle damage.
GregP
http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=451&page=7
I'd like to add that the very subject of the development and operational use of the early jet aircraft is still controversial and not so easy to research.
There are long standing myths that, despite several debunking efforts, find scores of supporters – a good number of them in not so good faith – who seem to be bent on keeping the whole matter confused, for reasons only the Almighty knows…
Unfortunately, the Me-262 seems to be on the receiving end of quite a few of these myths so much so that one gets the feeling that the 262 has become the Holy Grail of aviation and questioning any aspect of its performance envelope, operational record or – worst of all – its missed opportunity to ensure Nazi Germany's victory is tantamount to an attempt on the historical accuracy's life!
It is worth remembering that the aircraft was never supersonic, (unless in a terminal, perhaps wingless dive) and its wing sweep was never designed with a critical-mach reduction in mind, but as a quick-fix to restore the cg, following the switch from the BMW 109-003 turbojets to the heavier Junkers Jumo 109-004's.
The 262 was designed as a zerstörer, i.e. a 'destroyer', which was the German idea of the heavy fighter/interceptor, whose main purpose was to keep as may enemy bombers as possible from reaching their target.
This also explains why speed and heavy armament were paramount factors while maneuverability was not. The aircraft had not been designed to 'mix it up' with the escort and the fact that many a German "ol' hand" managed to shoot down enemy single-engine fighters, only testifies to their skills.
The aircraft proved also to be a decent reconnoiter and even the operational results of the fighter/bomber (JaBo) conversion, as well as Hitler's staunch support for such a conversion, are lately being more benignantly reconsidered by some revisionist historians.
The 262's place in aviation history and aeronautical development should not be dismissed or, even worse, pooh-poohed, but at the same time, the writing was on the wall so far as its superiority and invincibility were concerned!
Had the conflict continued into late 1945 and 1946, the appearance of the British D.H. Vampire and especially the US Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star would have redressed the balance, spelling the end of the 262's supremacy, hopelessly outclassed in terms of maneuverability, ceiling and climb rate by the Allied machines and now unable to exploit its greater speed to escape.
The performance charts testify to this and yet many a website, magazine or book is quick to point out a purported superiority of the German machine by taking out of context the results of ONE of the tests conducted by the AAF right after the end of the conflict (an often used piece of 'evidence'): "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 907 kg (2,000 lb), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter." (from wiki).
The fact that the flight envelope of the P-80A had, by then, not yet completely been explored by NACA and, most of all, the fact that at the time, in the period of economic austerity that followed the end of the conflict, the military establishment had to fight for every cent of the budget allotted and, showing an alleged technological inferiority would have, no doubt, ensured better funding, is systematically and conveniently neglected. Further evidence is that this, same tactic was later used throughout the Cold War to ensure the Department of Defense the R&D funds to develop better aircraft than the allegedly superior Soviet aircraft.
Regards,
__________________
Pete57
Just something to think about.
Regards,
Magnon
This is the reason I am not part of the Warbirdsforum ...
Some great people there but overall the level is not that of this forum. I think it's also where T.A. Gardner resides who distinguishes himself in advocating American superiority in every field.
In short, these comments suffer from hindsight reasoning. "The Me 262 was intended as ..." Who can say that? And at what point? Clearly the prospects of a jet fighter were different in 1941 than in 1944.
But just the same, they see the Me 262 as a fixed technology which does not evolve after April/May 1945. If the war had continued the Me 262 of mid 1945 would have been faster, stronger and more reliable. At the end of 1945 it would have been able to defeat any allied jet fighter opposing it. Able to ...
Kris
think this is not meant for me?
Kris
The following account of an encounter between an Me 262 and a Mosquito is interesting. The Mosquito could apparently out-turn the Schwalbe, at least in this instance...
Regards,
Magnon
If the 262 was flying at high speed, this is meaningless.
"The radius of turn is proportional to the square of the aircraft's true airspeed. With a higher airspeed the radius of turn is larger, and with a lower airspeed the radius is smaller."
Stick and rudder 101.
In a jet, you just don't "slow down" easily. Jets (early jets) take a while to speed up and slow down, and this coupled with first generation pilots and the fact that the 262 didnt have speed brakes is easily explained.If the 262 got on the mosquitos tail several times why didnt it reduce its speed?
Much as I like the mossie I dont think being in one with a 262 on your case is the best place to be.
In short, these comments suffer from hindsight reasoning. "The Me 262 was intended as ..." Who can say that? And at what point? Clearly the prospects of a jet fighter were different in 1941 than in 1944.
But just the same, they see the Me 262 as a fixed technology which does not evolve after April/May 1945. If the war had continued the Me 262 of mid 1945 would have been faster, stronger and more reliable. At the end of 1945 it would have been able to defeat any allied jet fighter opposing it. Able to ...
Kris
For anyone in general... a figure of what G forces were factored into the Me 262 structure design would be very interesting