Which jet was better, the Me 262 or the Gloster Meteor?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Me-262's engines were only good for about 10 hours, but overall I believe it was better than the Meteor. Atleast the early versions of the Meteor. Later on the Meteor probably overtook the Me-262 but by that time the Germans had other aircraft in the works and ready to fly like the Me P.1011 and the Ta-183 which completly would have outclassed the Meteor.

As for which looked better, the 262 clearly looked better. It was more streamlined and shark looking.

 

[delcyros]

From what I have seen, the 10 hours belong to the Jumo-004B2 only. The 1945 usually fitted Jumo-004 B3 had 25 hrs. the late Jumo-004B4 and D4 both around 50 hrs. In opposition to this the BMW-003 E had 200 hrs! But it is also a question of numbers. the Jumo-004 was produced in a number of between 5.000 and 7.000 units by wars end (Sources differ). This is a lot of redundance compared to the 600 Wellands and 800 BMW-003...
I do personally not believe that the Meteor ever overtook the Me-262 during ww2 (and even if you enleghten the szenario) in technical development. Both, the MK I and MK III were inferior to the Me-262 in an one on one engagement. The post war MK-IV was great but for a nearly doubled poweroutput. I ask what speed the Me-262 could develop by this thrust potential! The improvements for the Me-262 also included plans for more wingsweep (a 30 degrees swept back winged Me-262 was completed in march 45, a 45 degrees one was planed for mid 45), which never were included for the Meteor program. This is what makes me feel the Meteor wasn´t able to deal with the Messers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I will actually agree with you delcyros, atleast with the points that you made there.

 

[delcyros]

Jet propulsion alone doesn´t make a good fighter plane. The Meteor suffered badly from the fascination of it´s designer for thick airfoils (as to be seen in the Typhoon/Tempest).
This turns her into a poor high speed fighter. Jet propulsion allows faster speeds (and controll at high speeds) but the airfoil and general wing design offsets this partly. The result is a much lower critical Mach number than it´s contemporary opponents (Me-262, Me-162, He-162, even the Ar-234). The Meteor is superior at low speed handling but inferior in high speed handling and those jets aren´t designed for low speed engagements!

This may show the most striking advantage of the Me-262, Messerschmidt did not only introduced jet propulsion but also a sophisticated airfoil and wing layout to the -262 (for the swept wing part accidently), which contributed a lot to it´s superior development potential.

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

the tempest was a typhoon with a thin wing
Soviet post-war jet technology came from the Germans yeah, the feared MiG-15 came from the Ta 183

 

[Henk]

It is realy a fact that the Russian did not have any jet technolagy and thus every captured German jet were used to make their own. If you take the Sukhoi Su-9 were a jazzed up Me-262.

They also used a lot of Jomu 004 engines in their first aircraft.

Henk

 

[delcyros]

the feared MiG-15 came from the Ta 183

Another urban myth... we already have discussed this in the best jet poll in detail. The MiG-15 benefitted from very general, preliminary design layout. It surely isn´t a descendent of the Ta-183. It is indeed a ingenious soviet design.
The Tempest still had a thick airfoil if you compare it with a spit XIV.

 

[Henk]

I have also heard that it is just a urban myth. I do not know so much about that one.

The thing is the russians realy wanted to catch up with the rest of the world when the west got most of the German technolagy and also perfected theirs.

The whole world got ahead thanks to the Germans.

Henk

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

yeah THANK THEM FOR BETTER MASS DESTRUCTION WOOHOOO!!!!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Okay that was dumb loomaluftwaffe.

 

[Henk]

yeah THANK THEM FOR BETTER MASS DESTRUCTION WOOHOOO!!!!

Okay that was dumb loomaluftwaffe.

Yes, that was a stupid thing to say loolaluftwaffe. If you think other wise then read up on it and you will see they did, not just for army's around the world but for you and me too.

I think the US were the ones who designed mass destruction, the Atom bomb. Look at the shit that spawned from it.

Henk

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

V2 missile + Atom bomb = ICBM?

 

[evangilder]

Ahem...The US was not the only nation working on atomic weaponry, we were just the first to make it work. Let's think a bit more about this, shall we. Who were the main players in the development? Some of them were Jews that Germany were persecuting, and they got out while the getting was good.

You also need to remember that while the atomic bomb was the first project, nuclear energy came from that same set of experiments. Also other medical uses for the technology came about.

Now, should we get this back on topic?

 

[plan_D]

The V-2 had no inter-continental capability, the range was not long enough. The A-10 was in development in the dying days of the war which would have been a true ICBM , with a range to hit New York. The system on the A-10 was the same system used on space rockets to this day - after all it was developed by Von Braun, the leading developer in the Saturn 5 project.

And Britain were the first nation to study nuclear energy as a weapon.

 

[Henk]

Ahem...The US was not the only nation working on atomic weaponry, we were just the first to make it work. Let's think a bit more about this, shall we. Who were the main players in the development? Some of them were Jews that Germany were persecuting, and they got out while the getting was good.

You also need to remember that while the atomic bomb was the first project, nuclear energy came from that same set of experiments. Also other medical uses for the technology came about.

Now, should we get this back on topic?

Yes, the US were the first to make it work. Actually I were a bit stupid. I think there should have been laws that made nukes illegal to everyone, but the US build so many then the USSR build so many etc. The whole nuke thing makes me sick, because there are so many good things to it and bad things, but the US only used it once and they keep it for protection, but other countries does not.

I wish this bullshit would get end with nukes and I think the world should stop acting like little kids.

Iran, well I say give them what they want, a nuclear technology up there ass and wipe them off the face of the earth and all of those who want to deal with this type of shit in the bad sense.

So yes the US only got there first and they did it for the greater good, but all those who persuaded the nuke weapons were idiots.

evangilder you are right lets get back on the topic.

Henk

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

yeah lol me and my stupid comments,
back to topic now

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow we agree on something....

 

[Twitch]

Way back on page 1...what Flyboy said is it.....period.

 

[Magnon]

The engines in the Me 262 had a maximum time between overhaul of 25 hours. The Meteor had 150 hours, due to the use of nimonic alloys turbine blades. The Germans used stainless steel blades and claimed that they had a shortage of nickel and chromium, but these are usually around 18% and 8% in stainless steel. This argument doesn't stand up.

The Meteor went on to be used in the Korean war against the Mig 15, where it achieved a respectable number of kills (around 6), despite being outclassed by the second-generation fighter.

In addition:
- the axial flow compressors in the Me 262 engines were highly susceptible to surge, with subsequent loss of power.
- the cannon tended to jam in high G maneuvers.

 

[beaupower32]

Two types of 61-blade turbines are used. Originally both blades and disks were solid, later hollow blades and lighter disks were introduced at a saving of approximately 40 lb. The 12¼-oz. solid blades are forged from an austenitic steel containing 30% nickel, 14% chrome,1.75% titanium, and .12% carbon, corresponding closely to "Tinidur,"a Krupp alloy known before the war,and are attached by three machined lugs drilled to take two 11-mm.rivets each. Maximum centrifugal blade stresses have been estimated at 18,000 psi., and gas bending stressesat 2-4,000 psi. Study of the solid blades indicates that the roots didn't get much above 450 deg. C., due to the cooling air flow up from the disk, but near the center it appearsthe temperatures got up to about 750 deg. C. This applies to service models, not those previouslymentioned as having given the longer flight and test-stand life. Disks for hollow blade turbines are of lighter material than the solid types and have attached, across the front face, a thin sheet flared outnear the center. This picks up the cooling air and, via ridges on the disk, whirls it out toward the blade roots where it goes through two small holes drilled in the disk rim up through the blade and out the tip. Made of the same material as the solid blades, the hollow type are formed by deep drawing a disc through a total of 15 operations. In assembling the turbine, the blade roots are fitted over grooved stubs on the disk rim. Two small holes on each side take locating pins to hold the blades in place during assembly, but they take no stresses.



Taken from Design Analysis of Me-262 Jet Fighter by John Foster Jr. Part II- The Power Plant