Which was the best 1942-era dive bomber?

Discussion in 'Polls' started by hurricane55, Aug 3, 2012.

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Which was the best 1942-era dive bomber?

  1. Aichi D3A Val

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Douglas SBD Dauntless

    19 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Junkers Ju 87 Stuka

    13 vote(s)
    34.2%
  4. Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmovik

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  5. Blackburn Skua

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  1. hurricane55

    hurricane55 New Member

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    Which 1942-era dive bomber was the best? It does not matter how much each bomber was produced, but how effective it was in dive bombing, defending itself,ect.
    Some aircraft were not included due to not meeting the 1942-era criteria such as the SB2C Helldiver and He 50.
     
  2. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Can carry a wide variety of weapons
    .....Bomb(s) up to 1,800 kg in size.
    .....Torpedoes and special bombs designed for skip bombing against maritime targets.
    .....Cluster bombs.
    .....Two underwing cannon up to 3.7cm in size.
    Outstanding accuracy for all of the above weapons.
    Good armor protection against ground fire.
    Sturdy wide track landing gear and short runway capability allow it to operate from almost any clearing in addition to proper airfields and CV deck.
    Fixed landing gear may look old fashioned but the Ju-87 was as fast as a SBD and probably quite a few other small dive bombers.
    Relatively cheap to mass produce.

    Ju-88A, Me-210C and Pe-2 were operational during 1942. These large dive bombers probably belong in a separate category. Larger, faster and longer range then small dive bombers such as the Ju-87 and SBD.
     
  3. Rogi

    Rogi Active Member

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    Hs-123?

    Since were missing it and I have a fondness for the Hs I'd say the Stuka :D That Siren and the shear effect it has on people
    must at least rank the Stuka at 1st. When you think dive bomber you always get the image of the Bob Stuka in action in the movie hehe.
     
  4. Thorlifter

    Thorlifter Well-Known Member

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    I'll go with the Dauntless. Better defensive armament, heavier payload, much better range. If it's the siren that you like (and I do too), just strap a Jericho Trumpet on the wing of the SBD. :lol:
     
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  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    :?:
    During 1942 SBDs typically carried a 1,000 lb bomb. During 1942 the Ju-87D typically carried 1,000 kg.
     
  6. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    1942 Stuka and SBD have nearly identical defensive armament. Stuka has better payload, SBD better range.
     
  7. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    An accurate summary.

    Unlike the SBD, the Ju-87D had a big brother. Ju-87s were tasked with short range dive bomber missions. Ju-88As were tasked with long range dive bomber missions. The two Junkers dive bombers complimented each other. SBD did not have a complimentary large dive bomber so it had to be a jack of all trades (and master of nothing). However IMO the SBD was a reasonably good compromise between bomb load and range.
     
  8. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Yes,The Ju 87 was designed for use somewhat like long range artillery in support of the Army so its relatively limited range was not an issue. It didn't have to fly over vast expanses of the Pacific Ocean !

    I voted for it anyway.

    Steve
     
  9. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    What was the longest range SBD strike mission when carrying a 1,000 lb bomb? I think it was less then 200 miles.
     
  10. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, the 1,000 pound payload max range was about 225 statute miles while the 500 lb. armed-search profile was about 300 sm.
     
  11. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I'll rephrase that....operate in the vast expanses of the Pacific Ocean :)

    If I'd known that the Dauntless had less than double the range of the Ju 87 then I'd have voted for the "Stuka" twice!

    Steve
     
  12. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    #12 oldcrowcv63, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
    Looks to me like the range was about double that of the Stuka. The values I quoted above were for CV Based operations. That typically allows a 20% fuel margin, so the effective range is more like ~270 smi. for a max-range, land-based combat mission with a full load. Previous quote regarding the battle of Cape Esperance was incorrect, doing further research.

    I have no idea what the land based combat mission range of the Stuka was but wikipedia ranges compare as:

    SBD-5: 1,115 statute miles
    Stuka: 311 statute miles

    The SBD-3 had a longer range than the -5. Max Payload for the SBD-5 was 2,250 lbs., for the SBD-3 was 1,200 lbs. Wiki claims Stuka-JU-87-B2 payload was just under 1,200 lbs. Of course these maximum payloads do not correspond to their max range.

    Based on this simplistic comparison I'd guess the SBD's range was at least twice that of the Stuka.
     
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  13. Tante Ju

    Tante Ju Banned

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    #13 Tante Ju, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
    Real comparison to SBD is imho a Ju 87D with 1x1000 kg bomb and 2x300 liter droptank... B version Stukas had less fuel and bomb capacity, and not really a good comparison for 1942 when they were about to be phased out.

    Ju 87D-1 had 1500 km range with 1000 kg bomb and 2x300 liter droptank. Pretty much the same as SBD-5 on long range mission.
     
  14. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    800 liters. Ju-87D internal fuel.
    …..Can carry two 300 liter drop tanks in addition to 1,000 kg bomb on centerline.
    …..Flight duration of 4 hours when carrying two drop tanks.

    960 liters. SBD internal fuel.

    Did the SBD have a range advantage over the Ju-87D? I'm starting to doubt it.
     
  15. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    According to wikipedia (the easiest albeit questionable on-line source available to me at present), during the Naval Battle of Guadacanal, SBDs from Enterprise attacked transports at a distance of over 230 miles. No indication of the load out however. There is a lot of conflicting range quotes cited for the SBD on the web. Wikipedia is as above but other sites quote 770 miles. My guess is that this latter lower range value most probably represents a round trip distance covered by an unarmed scouting mission.
     
  16. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    #16 oldcrowcv63, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
    Which SBD? when was the JU-87D in service?

    According to wikipedia the JU-87 D could use only 780 liters and the 260 gallons of internal fuel for the SBD corresponds to 984 liters. Also the SBD-5 could carry 2 x 58 gallon wing tanks if needed and was evidently radar equipped and carrying up to a 1,600 lb payload.

    I don't think you have enough information yet to determine the size of the SBD range advantage.
     
  17. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    AFAIK Ju 87D go in production in spring '41 and SBD-5 in '43
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Production of Ju-87D began during May 1941. They would have been in service a couple months later.

    Ju-87D cruise speed was at least 150 mph with payload.
    .....Probably 30 mph faster on the return trip with bombs and drop tanks gone.
    4 hour flight time with 2 x 300 liter drop tanks.
    Range with max fuel load is probably about 660 miles.

    Combat radius is typically about 1/3rd of total range.
    So I would guess Ju-87D combat radius with 1,000 kg bomb is around 220 miles. About the same as SBD but with twice the bomb load.
     
  19. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    Looking at MTO Luftwaffe unit deployments, the Dora doesn't appear on the scene until January 1942.

    http://www.ww2.dk/misc/obmed.pdf

    The JU-87 D's total payload capability of nearly 4,000 lbs is indeed impressive although it evidently caused landing gear structural issues when introduced. I would expect with the JU 87-D wing tanks and a bomb of SBD size. range would approach that of the apparently roughly contemporary SBD-3. Wiki doesn't define the 4 hour flight configuration, but I would expect (without evidence) it to be with a 250 kg bomb load. I would also expect, that despite the additional 200 hp of the Stuka's Jumo and the larger wing area, drag would limit its range somewhat. IIRC, the SBD routinely flew missions of 4 hours but lacking sources, I can't give much more definition. At Santa Cruz, an armed search departed Enterprise at 6 AM, at some point in their search, one pair of SBDs altered course to attack the Zuiho successfully at 0830 AM and then returned to their carrier (I assume ~2 hours later). Probably a mission of at least 4 hours flown with a 500 lb bomb.
     
  20. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    #20 Vincenzo, Aug 16, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
    Howyou get that page from ww2.dk? i don't see that file in miscellaneus index
     
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