Which was the best 1942-era dive bomber?

[oldcrowcv63]

If I understand the literature that's been written about the famous armed search mission during Santa Cruz of Strong and Irvine who bombed the Zuiho, they were flying a pie shaped search pattern as described by Kettbo in a nearby sector to that of the SBD pair that reported and then attempted to bomb the IJN carrriers. Strong, performed a predictive navigation solution and decided he could just make it to the reported CV position from his sector and make an attack before returning home. So their flight path probably included some portion of their original search pattern followed by a dog leg to the reported position and then an approximately direct path back to Enterprise's point option position. According to Stafford (The Big E, not always the most reliable source) he landed with tanks nearly empty after nearly 4.5 hours. Even this mission may not be a good indicator of the armed SBD's max range as they were evidently dodging and sparring with Zeroes while in the vicinity of the IJN fleet. If we assume a 20% reserve on a 4 hour mission, then a land-based SBD-3 may have been able to do a 5 hour mission carrying a 500# bomb. Of course even a mission from a land base is going to require some reserve so 5 hours is probably a theoretical maximum and not one thay is likely to be used in practice.

 

[stona]

Point is that there are a lot different combinations of both planes with some rather different capabilities.

Yes,and the point is quite correct.

I can't find any evidence for the Jumo 213 ever being fitted to "Doras",certainly not in service. There were a lot of problems with the engine in development and by the time it was sorted out it had been ear marked for the Ju 88.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Val doesn't get much attention, but was the single most successful enemy ship buster of the war

I have doubts about that. How many tons of merchant shipping were sunk by Val dive bombers? What warships were sunk primarily by Val dive bombers (i.e. not Kate torpedo bombers)?

 

[davebender]

Seems unlikely with the possible exception of a few prototypes.

Jumo 213 engine production didn't start catching up to demand until mid 1944. About the same time Ju-87 production ended.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

from wikipedia: (Don't know whether this list has been filtered to eliminate credit for combined Kate and Betty torpedo kills)

Allied warships sunk by Aichi D3As; type, nation, date of loss, location
HMS Cornwall, British heavy cruiser, 5 April 1942 - Indian Ocean
HMS Dorsetshire, British heavy cruiser, 5 April 1942 - Indian Ocean
HMS Hector, British armed merchant cruiser, 5 April 1942 - Indian Ocean
HMS Tenedos, British destroyer, 5 April 1942 - Indian Ocean
HMS Hermes, British aircraft carrier, 9 April 1942 - Indian Ocean
HMAS Vampire, Australian destroyer, 9 April 1942 - Indian Ocean
USS Langley, American seaplane tender (sunk by U.S. forces after attack) 27 Feb 1942 - Pacific Ocean[14]
USS Peary, American destroyer, 19 February 1942 - Australia (Darwin)[15]
USS Pope, American destroyer, 1 March 1942 - Pacific Ocean
USS De Haven, American destroyer, 1 February 1943 - Pacific Ocean
USS Aaron Ward, American destroyer, 7 April 1943 - Pacific Ocean
USS Brownson, American destroyer, 26 December 1943 - Pacific Ocean[16]
USS Sims, American destroyer, 7 May 1942 - Pacific Ocean
USS Benham, American destroyer, 15 November 1942 - Pacific Ocean
USS Abner Read, American destroyer, sunk by kamikaze 1 November 1944 - Pacific Ocean[17]
USS William D. Porter, American destroyer, sunk by kamikaze 10 June 1945 - Japan (Okinawa)
As the war progressed, there were instances when the dive bombers were pressed into duty as fighters in the interceptor role, their maneuverability being enough to allow them to survive in this role

 

[davebender]

2 x CA
1 x WWI era CV
1 x U.S. aircraft ferry (i.e. USS Langley during 1942)
11 x DD.
1 x Merchant.

Significant accomplishments but not in the same league as Ju-87, Ju-88 and SBD dive bombers.

D3A has three handicaps in this competition.
- Small bomb load. 250 kg is tiny for a dive bomber. Most fighter aircraft can carry at least that much.
- Small production numbers. Only 1,486 built.
- D3A normally had to fight through heavy enemy air defenses (AA plus CAP).

 

[nuuumannn]

Quote from Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War by Rene J. Francillon

"...the aircraft achieved considerable success during the first ten months of the war and sank more Allied fighting ships than any other type of Axis aircraft." I guess that trumps the Ju 87 and Ju 88 then. As for having to fight through heavy enemy air defences, that's not a shortcoming of the type - I suspect that applies to every carrier based aircraft employed in the Pacific, although I can't be certain

A factor in favour of the D3A, which it had over the Stuka (apart from speed) was its versatility; it could operate from sea and land bases, whereas your basic unmodified Ju 87 could not operate from both (although a version was specifically built for the Graf Zeppelin - yes, I know)

Ju 87 was without a doubt the best in the ETO, but gets beaten by the Dauntless because of its diminishing importance as the war progressed. As for the D3A, obsolete type that produced exceptional results and deserves its place in the sun, it's replacement was probably the best single engined bomber of the war; thankfully its qualities were not able to be exploited to any real effect during the war.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

2 x CA
1 x WWI era CV
1 x U.S. aircraft ferry (i.e. USS Langley during 1942)
11 x DD.
1 x Merchant.

Significant accomplishments but not in the same league as Ju-87, Ju-88 and SBD dive bombers.

D3A has three handicaps in this competition.
- Small bomb load. 250 kg is tiny for a dive bomber. Most fighter aircraft can carry at least that much.
- Small production numbers. Only 1,486 built.
- D3A normally had to fight through heavy enemy air defenses (AA plus CAP).

Can you list all the warships sunk by the Ju 87?

 

[parsifal]

Vals sank many more ships than that. though it is hard to pinpoint accurately the exact numbers of ships, the japanese airforces were responsible for the sinking or disabling of more than a milion tons of shipping by June 1942. From June 1942 through to september 1944, the Japanese Air Forces sank about 2m tons of allied shipping. In the last year of the war, more than 1000 allied shis were sunk or damaged, many of them by kamikazes, and many of these were Vals.

The germans never got anywhere near that tonnage sunk. They sank 750000 tons in 1939-40, and a similar amount in 1941 9mostly by FW200s). in 1942 losses were down to about 500000 tons, including the med, but by 1943, it was below 250000 and continued to head south for the remainder of the war.

Very few aircrews of the Ju87 were ever trained to attack shipping, and aircraft not specially trained for the purpose were remarkably unsuccessful

 

[davebender]

Tonnage sunk isn't the only thing that counts. Fear of German dive bombers (real or imagined) was a constant factor for the RN during 1940 and 1941. It was probably decisive for German victories in Norway and the Balkans. The RN didn't think they could continue logistical support in the face of German air power. Fear of German dive bombers was probably also decisive in the Aegean during 1943.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Tonnage sunk isn't the only thing that counts. Fear of German dive bombers (real or imagined) was a constant factor for the RN during 1940 and 1941. It was probably decisive for German victories in Norway and the Balkans. The RN didn't think they could continue logistical support in the face of German air power. Fear of German dive bombers was probably also decisive in the Aegean during 1943.

Then dont make claims that state that the tonnage sunk by Vals was not as significant. If you are going to discredit the Val on tonnage sunk, then back up your statement with facts.

 

[Tempik]

il2 is not dive bomber

 

[oldcrowcv63]

2 x CA
1 x WWI era CV
1 x U.S. aircraft ferry (i.e. USS Langley during 1942)
11 x DD.
1 x Merchant.

Significant accomplishments but not in the same league as Ju-87, Ju-88 and SBD dive bombers.

The 11 DDs mentioned above is significant.... Ask a verteran SBD pilot how hard it was to hit an IJN DD. DDs were probably the hardest target a dive bomber could face. I think one pilot likened it to something like trying to hit a scurrying mouse with marble dropped from above. A testament to both the quality of the VAL as a dive bomber and the pilot flying it.

 

[stug3]

The Skua should not have been included in this poll as it was withdrawn from operations by the end of 1941. The Petlyakov Pe-2 should have though, it was as important and effective as the Sturmovik.

 

[BLine22]

SBD, could defend itself against fighters, actually launched on combat air patrols against enemy attack aircraft.

 

[GrauGeist]

& famed Stuka pilot Rudel made ace too, it doesn't make a dedicated dive-bomber into a fighter though.
The USAAF rightly never attempted to operate the A-24 in the ETO, since it would've been tragic.

The SBD had good enough flight characteristics early in the war to make it dangerous and it did account for quite a few IJN/IJA aircraft.

Rudel's victories were mostly earned in a Fw190F-8, Fw190D-9 and Fw190D-12.

As for the Banshee, the US didn't need it, they had the Apache.

 

[GrauGeist]

AFAIR, Rudel made ace flying the Stuka,
& his Stuka A2A victories included shooting down an IL-2 with the 37mm A/T cannon.

Negative, the bulk of Rudel's victories were earned in the Fw190 type.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Up to 1 June 1944 Rudel had claimed two Lagg-3s and one Il-2 in the Stuka. He then claimed at least three aerial victories in the FW 190 F-8 (an 'Il-5' and two Il-2s). Not sure in which type he claimed his other three aerial victories (probably in the FW 190 F-8), but it is very unlikely it was in the FW 190 D-9, given he flew it on only a handful of ground-attack missions in the final month of the war.

 

[buffnut453]

The Skua should not have been included in this poll as it was withdrawn from operations by the end of 1941.View attachment 210483

Agree the Skua shouldn't be on the list but how about adding...And I'll probably get a "Like" from Wildcat for this one! ... the Vultee Vengeance? It arrived on squadrons in October 1942 so it fits the "1942 era" title for the survey.

 

[GrauGeist]

Agree the Skua shouldn't be on the list but how about adding...And I'll probably get a "Like" from Wildcat for this one! ... the Vultee Vengeance? It arrived on squadrons in October 1942 so it fits the "1942 era" title for the survey.

The Skua may not have been the "best", but it claimed the first aircraft downed for Britain in the war: a Dornier Do18.

There's actually a good number of dive bombers, active during 1942, that are missing from the list.
The most prominent ones missing are:
Yokosuka D4Y1
Henschel Hs123