Who would you want to design your fighter - 1943

[Conslaw]

Figure I'll stir it up a bit. Lockheed L-133.

Your mission is ours

Kelly Johnson would be my choice for designer. The L-133 showed the the direction that Lockheed was looking in 1938-39 for fighters without a time and money constraint. The Air Corps basically said - time and money are constraints, so no thank you. When they were ready to do a jet, Lockheed was ready with the P-80 which respected both time and money constraints.

 

[SaparotRob]

One would probably lose 50 cents betting against Mr. Johnson.

 

[SaparotRob]

Mr. Johnson would bet an employee 50 cents to see who was right on a problem.
EDITED FOR SOURCE. A PBS special on the SR-71.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Mr. Johnson would bet an employee 50 cents to see who was right on a problem.
EDITED FOR SOURCE. A PBS special on the SR-71.

Also mentioned in the book "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich. Johnson wasn't an easy man to work for, suborn and sometimes arrogant, but I think his track record speaks for itself.

 

[pbehn]

Loud noise, flames and explosions attract crowds!

As someone who did motorsport, people want to see others crash and they dont care if they are killed, Spectators go to where there are most crashes, not where the best riding or driving can be seen.

 

[SaparotRob]

As someone who did motorsport, people want to see others crash and they dont care if they are killed, Spectators go to where there are most crashes, not where the best riding or driving can be seen.

Sadly, I agree. I used to enjoy NASCAR big time until life happened. I wanted a clean, record setting race. A real fan follows all the drivers. I didn't want to see anyone get hurt, including DW.

 

[pbehn]

Sadly, I agree. I used to enjoy NASCAR big time until life happened. I wanted a clean, record setting race. A real fan follows all the drivers. I didn't want to see anyone get hurt, including DW.

In the last race of my first season I let the guy who had been doing the driving, fetching and carrying for me take my place for the last race. He wore my leathers and helmet so everyone thought it was me. It was very "educational" listening to spectators who didnt know me at all wanting me to crash, so their friend who they also probably didnt really know beat "me". No racer actually wants the person they race against to crash and get hurt.

 

[ClayO]

Also mentioned in the book "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich. Johnson wasn't an easy man to work for, suborn and sometimes arrogant, but I think his track record speaks for itself.

That would describe a lot of famous people - almost anybody who accomplished anything notable was probably not a nice person. Even Mr. Rogers and Marie Curie were demanding perfectionists, when they felt it was necessary.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

That would describe a lot of famous people - almost anybody who accomplished anything notable was probably not a nice person. Even Mr. Rogers and Marie Curie were demanding perfectionists, when they felt it was necessary.

And Kelly Johnson was and if you read the book you'll see for yourself

 

[chipieal]

From the pilots point of view THE most important characteristic of a fighter plane is simple. Can it get it's ass shot off and still bring the pilot home. M Vote Eepublic Aviation and the partically indesctructable P -47 Especially the later models. I always wanted to see the inverted Chrysler hemi head developed to its zenith. They never went beyond the one time test which clocked 504 mph i believe at sea level. If the Dornier 335 could clock 540 mph A Hemi Chrysler should have blown that out of the water. I realize you get to a point of dimishing returns with props - but as a die hard Chrsler guy -- this would have been really great.

 

[Howard Gibson]

From the pilots point of view THE most important characteristic of a fighter plane is simple. Can it get it's ass shot off and still bring the pilot home. M Vote Eepublic Aviation and the partically indesctructable P -47 Especially the later models. I always wanted to see the inverted Chrysler hemi head developed to its zenith. They never went beyond the one time test which clocked 504 mph i believe at sea level. If the Dornier 335 could clock 540 mph A Hemi Chrysler should have blown that out of the water. I realize you get to a point of dimishing returns with props - but as a die hard Chrsler guy -- this would have been really great.

Thunderbolts were not "partically indesctructable". Lots of them got shot down. Air ace Neel Kearby was shot down and killed by a Ki-43 "Oscar". Being shot at is bad for you.

Being rugged is good. Being the reason everyone else needs to be rugged is good too.

The 504mph Thunderbolt was the lightweight P-47J, powered by a Pratt & Whitney R-2800. It appears that the Chrysler XI-2220 did not work out.

 

[ClayO]

And Kelly Johnson was and if you read the book you'll see for yourself

It's on my "to-read" list. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It's on my "to-read" list. Thanks for the recommendation.

If you get your hands on that book, there are several photographs, one of them showing a bunch of guys celebrating after the first flight of the F-117A. I worked with many of the guys in that photograph and had an opportunity to go to the site with them, I opted to take a promotion and work as an inspector on the P3 flightline, all this was early 1980s. I later worked with Ben Rich's step daughter, got to meet him a few times, very personable and interesting man. That was the beginning of my aviation career, seems like yesterday.

 

[GrauGeist]

Air ace Neel Kearby was shot down and killed by a Ki-43 "Oscar"

He was shot down but safely baled out.

He would have most likely survived had he not been tangled in a tree in a remote area. His body was recovered from the tree in 1949.

 

[wuzak]

From the pilots point of view THE most important characteristic of a fighter plane is simple. Can it get it's ass shot off and still bring the pilot home. M Vote Eepublic Aviation and the partically indesctructable P -47 Especially the later models.

You could keep making an aircraft stronger and more resistant to battle damage, but it will get to the point that such a fighter would not be able to get off the ground. And there is a balancing act between the ability to absorb getting hit and the ability to avoid getting hit.

I always wanted to see the inverted Chrysler hemi head developed to its zenith. They never went beyond the one time test which clocked 504 mph i believe at sea level. If the Dornier 335 could clock 540 mph A Hemi Chrysler should have blown that out of the water. I realize you get to a point of dimishing returns with props - but as a die hard Chrsler guy -- this would have been really great.

As a Chrysler guy you may know that the XI-2220 was based on the "hyper" cylinder developed by the USAAC Material Division in the late 1920s/early 1930s . The same basic design was also used in the Continental XI-1430 and the Lycoming XO-1230/XH-2470.

The Chrysler XI-2220 was about the same capacity and power as the Rolls-Royce Griffon, but about 50% longer.

The XP-47H never reached 500mph, and certainly not at sea level.

The Dornier Do 335 had a maximum speed of around 470mph at over 20,000ft. It could only do this when using nitrous oxide. Without NO2 the maximum speed was around 430mph.

The Do 335 was a twin engine design which had heavier armament (1 x 30mm + 2 x 20mm, some had more) and an internal bomb bay that could carry 2,200lb of bombs. It's empty weight was not much less than the maximum take-off weight of a P-47D, and about 50% more than the P-47D's empty weight. The Do 335 was just a bigger aircraft than the P-47. A Hemi Chrysler was not required for the P-47 to be faster than the Do 335, not that the XI-2220 was anything special in terms of performance.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You could keep making an aircraft stronger and more resistant to battle damage, but it will get to the point that such a fighter would not be able to get off the ground. And there is a balancing act between the ability to absorb getting hit and the ability to avoid getting hit.

Not to mention the ability to achieve a position to hit and kill the enemy.

The P-47 is probably my favorite WWII aircraft, but that's for sentimental and not objective reasons.

 

[tomo pauk]

From the pilots point of view THE most important characteristic of a fighter plane is simple. Can it get it's ass shot off and still bring the pilot home. M Vote Eepublic Aviation and the partically indesctructable P -47 Especially the later models. I always wanted to see the inverted Chrysler hemi head developed to its zenith. They never went beyond the one time test which clocked 504 mph i believe at sea level. If the Dornier 335 could clock 540 mph A Hemi Chrysler should have blown that out of the water. I realize you get to a point of dimishing returns with props - but as a die hard Chrsler guy -- this would have been really great.

Pilot's point of view takes second (3rd? 4th?) seat behind the air force's or air service's point of view. They demand that aircraft does the required missions, and will agree to the expected losses the fighter force will sustain in order to these missions are completed. An supposedly indestructible fighter that can't reliably escort the bombers all the way to their target is a worse proposal than a realistic fighter (ie. the one that can be destroyed) that can do the escort. Same goes with an interceptor - air forces/services required something that can climb fast, fly fast and carry the bomber-killing guns. There was a lot of fighters that out-climb the P-47.

The IV-2200 was a bird at the roof. R-2800 was the one in the hand, and what a bird that was.

 

[wuzak]

The IV-2200 was a bird at the roof. R-2800 was the one in the hand, and what a bird that was.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?

 

[Howard Gibson]

Pilot's point of view takes second (3rd? 4th?) seat behind the air force's or air service's point of view. They demand that aircraft does the required missions, and will agree to the expected losses the fighter force will sustain in order to these missions are completed. An supposedly indestructible fighter that can't reliably escort the bombers all the way to their target is a worse proposal than a realistic fighter (ie. the one that can be destroyed) that can do the escort. Same goes with an interceptor - air forces/services required something that can climb fast, fly fast and carry the bomber-killing guns. There was a lot of fighters that out-climb the P-47.

The IV-2200 was a bird at the roof. R-2800 was the one in the hand, and what a bird that was.

According to Cecil Adams, the National Transportation Safety Board is used to being asked "If aircraft 'black boxes' are indestructible, why can't the whole plane be made from the same material?"

We ought to learn from RMS Titanic and the World Trade Center, that there is no such thing as indestructible.

 

[Howard Gibson]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?

It was more like two birds in the hand being worth more than one in the bush. Would the Chrysler engine increase the power of an R-2800? A Packard or Ford Griffon would have been installable in a Mustang.