GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
That's like saying this '42 Willys is representative of all 1942 Willys coupes...
Who would you want to design your fighter - 1943
- Thread starter NevadaK
- Start date
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Spindash64
Airman
- 86
- Oct 21, 2021
I would ask an American firm, due to access to better metallurgy and engines.
The details are pretty dependent on what we mean by 1943. Do we mean we want the aircraft ready for production in 1943, maybe even in combat? If so, hiring on someone like Kurt Tank would be very good, as he had a strong understanding of the realities wartime machines faced, and this would be during the thick of the conflict. An Fw 190 esque design with an R-2800 and wing mounted Hispano V would be an ideal multirole aircraft, somewhere between a Corsair and Bearcat. Curtiss is currently building mostly P-40s, and their recent attempts at fighter designs haven't been successful, so this wouldn't eat into total US air strength as badly as asking Lockheed, Republic, or North American
But if you mean either the first flight or the the requirements being set in 1943, then things change. By this point, it's clear the Turbojet is the way of the future, and it is unclear at this point what company or designer has an obvious edge in creating an ideal Jet fighter. As such, I would try to play it safe and make the request with either Kelly Johnson or Edgar Schmeud. The former has a history of working on ambitious projects, and the P-38 is about ready for a successor as it stands (the plane was designed just BARELY too soon for it to make use of the NACA research that went into the Mustang and Jug, resulting in it being pretty draggy). The latter designer has proven successful at creating a new aircraft in record time, but more important to this is that the prior design in question has some of the lowest parasite drag for a given speed of any fighter at this time. Since Turbojets give near constant thrust, reducing drag of the airframe can actually increase horsepower without needing to touch the engines at all (Power is thrust times velocity. Reducing parasite drag by around 20%, based on my crude math, gives a 10% increase in maximum speed for equal thrust, thus increasing power by 10%). The Mustang also proved very cost effective to build in large numbers and pilot friendly, so if the new design can keep these principles, the resulting aircraft can be used as an advanced trainer as well for Jet aircraft
While Ryan Aircraft's twin propulsion system idea is promising, particularly for a naval aircraft, the long term sacrifices to the design are too extreme, and at this point we want to build an aircraft that can age gracefully, as it is clear that there will likely be a significant "quiet" period ahead, where an easily modernized aircraft will have the edge. I would only consider it if the design is specifically meant to utilize aircraft carriers, and in that case, like Ryan aircraft did on the FR-1, I would suggest the use of a relatively small and lightweight reciprocating engine, as this engine is primarily meant to boost available power at low speeds, similar to Lift Jets or Fans on the modern day F-35B or Yak-38.
I would once again suggest the designers consider using the Hispano V in the design, as the weapon offers comparable rate of fire to the Browning with significantly more damaging rounds. In this case I would be even more firm in this assessment, as the cannon has proven reliable enough to be worth the teething issues early on, and also being needed to hit future aircraft that travel much faster and leave less time to fire
The details are pretty dependent on what we mean by 1943. Do we mean we want the aircraft ready for production in 1943, maybe even in combat? If so, hiring on someone like Kurt Tank would be very good, as he had a strong understanding of the realities wartime machines faced, and this would be during the thick of the conflict. An Fw 190 esque design with an R-2800 and wing mounted Hispano V would be an ideal multirole aircraft, somewhere between a Corsair and Bearcat. Curtiss is currently building mostly P-40s, and their recent attempts at fighter designs haven't been successful, so this wouldn't eat into total US air strength as badly as asking Lockheed, Republic, or North American
But if you mean either the first flight or the the requirements being set in 1943, then things change. By this point, it's clear the Turbojet is the way of the future, and it is unclear at this point what company or designer has an obvious edge in creating an ideal Jet fighter. As such, I would try to play it safe and make the request with either Kelly Johnson or Edgar Schmeud. The former has a history of working on ambitious projects, and the P-38 is about ready for a successor as it stands (the plane was designed just BARELY too soon for it to make use of the NACA research that went into the Mustang and Jug, resulting in it being pretty draggy). The latter designer has proven successful at creating a new aircraft in record time, but more important to this is that the prior design in question has some of the lowest parasite drag for a given speed of any fighter at this time. Since Turbojets give near constant thrust, reducing drag of the airframe can actually increase horsepower without needing to touch the engines at all (Power is thrust times velocity. Reducing parasite drag by around 20%, based on my crude math, gives a 10% increase in maximum speed for equal thrust, thus increasing power by 10%). The Mustang also proved very cost effective to build in large numbers and pilot friendly, so if the new design can keep these principles, the resulting aircraft can be used as an advanced trainer as well for Jet aircraft
While Ryan Aircraft's twin propulsion system idea is promising, particularly for a naval aircraft, the long term sacrifices to the design are too extreme, and at this point we want to build an aircraft that can age gracefully, as it is clear that there will likely be a significant "quiet" period ahead, where an easily modernized aircraft will have the edge. I would only consider it if the design is specifically meant to utilize aircraft carriers, and in that case, like Ryan aircraft did on the FR-1, I would suggest the use of a relatively small and lightweight reciprocating engine, as this engine is primarily meant to boost available power at low speeds, similar to Lift Jets or Fans on the modern day F-35B or Yak-38.
I would once again suggest the designers consider using the Hispano V in the design, as the weapon offers comparable rate of fire to the Browning with significantly more damaging rounds. In this case I would be even more firm in this assessment, as the cannon has proven reliable enough to be worth the teething issues early on, and also being needed to hit future aircraft that travel much faster and leave less time to fire
Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
That is a "funny car". How many actual Willys components does it have?
Late war WWII fighters have draggy, bubble canopies that get cut down by racers. Rare Bear's WWII R2800 radial engine was replaced by a WWII R3350 radial engine. I am pretty certain that almost all of the original WWI era air frame is still there.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 904
- Feb 16, 2013
Rare Bear's engine was sourced from a Skyraider, and is entirely post war. The R-3350 in post war use was not the same engine that was lighting B-29's on fire in 1945
Edit: Sorry, I think the original Rare Bear engine in 1968 was from a Skyraider, the current engine I believe is from a DC-7. Most the airframe is probably still F8F-2 vintage (which isn't WWII either) but with major re-work, but nothing of the power plant, cooling system, cowling, propeller is original
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Speaking of Rare Bear, here's a few pics I took several years ago at Stead after the races, engine off!
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 904
- Feb 16, 2013
The wings fold? I thought they removed the outer section?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I was surprised to see that too
They cut down the very usable in combat bubble canopies, to something that is barely functional at all.
Rare Bear is WW2 technology without the "war" thingy, like guns and armour and range and reliability and all that stuff. When did they stop Reno racers shooting at each other? A very backward step in sport as far as I am concerned.
Dash119
Senior Airman
The wings have been clipped even though they still fold.
And while Rare Bear's canopy has been shaved, it seems downright roomy compared to Daryl Greenamyer's Bearcat.
As I recall Daryl could not wear a helmet, the bubble was too small. He wore a leather flying 'helmet' reminiscent of the WW2 era versions. While the fuselage, basic wing structure , and landing gear are basically original WW2 technology, nothing else about these two planes is. The aerodynamics, powerplant, propellor, and various other systems on both birds are changed considerably.
Photos courtesy of the internet.
And while Rare Bear's canopy has been shaved, it seems downright roomy compared to Daryl Greenamyer's Bearcat.
As I recall Daryl could not wear a helmet, the bubble was too small. He wore a leather flying 'helmet' reminiscent of the WW2 era versions. While the fuselage, basic wing structure , and landing gear are basically original WW2 technology, nothing else about these two planes is. The aerodynamics, powerplant, propellor, and various other systems on both birds are changed considerably.
Photos courtesy of the internet.
- Thread starter
- #92
Here is a good article about Rare Bear and some of the mods up to that point.
Rare Bear - The wrecked F8F-2 Bearcat that became Air Racing's winningest Unlimited racer - Flight Journal
Aviation History | History of Flight | Aviation History Articles, Warbirds, Bombers, Trainers, Pilots | Rare Bear - The wrecked F8F-2 Bearcat that became Air Racing's winningest Unlimited racer
www.flightjournal.com
the wikipedia page has a pretty good overview of the transformations. Rare Bear - Wikipedia
But, this caught my eye:
Before the 2009 races, the wing root mounted oil coolers were replaced with a boil-off oil cooling system. As a result, the outer halves of both wing root inlets were closed off.[12] Sporting yet another new paint scheme,[13] Rare Bear finished second in the final race with a speed of 479.088 mph (770.8 km/h).
It's quite an interesting history. I guess we could argue that the airframe is "original" but that would be a pretty loose definition in my book.
A WW2 airplane was not built for maximum speed alone, it had a job to do. The British turned down suggestions to increase the speed of the Mustang MkI preferring shorter take off runs, rate of climb and max service ceiling over absolute max speed, I read somewhere recently.Here is a good article about Rare Bear and some of the mods up to that point.
Rare Bear - The wrecked F8F-2 Bearcat that became Air Racing's winningest Unlimited racer - Flight Journal
Aviation History | History of Flight | Aviation History Articles, Warbirds, Bombers, Trainers, Pilots | Rare Bear - The wrecked F8F-2 Bearcat that became Air Racing's winningest Unlimited racer
the wikipedia page has a pretty good overview of the transformations. Rare Bear - Wikipedia
But, this caught my eye:
Before the 2009 races, the wing root mounted oil coolers were replaced with a boil-off oil cooling system. As a result, the outer halves of both wing root inlets were closed off.[12] Sporting yet another new paint scheme,[13] Rare Bear finished second in the final race with a speed of 479.088 mph (770.8 km/h).
It's quite an interesting history. I guess we could argue that the airframe is "original" but that would be a pretty loose definition in my book.
Dash119
Senior Airman
In the picture above you can see the steam coming out of the tail-cone from the boil-off system. This would indicate the plane has just returned from a flight and is preparing to shut down.Here is a good article about Rare Bear and some of the mods up to that point.
Rare Bear - The wrecked F8F-2 Bearcat that became Air Racing's winningest Unlimited racer - Flight Journal
Aviation History | History of Flight | Aviation History Articles, Warbirds, Bombers, Trainers, Pilots | Rare Bear - The wrecked F8F-2 Bearcat that became Air Racing's winningest Unlimited racer
the wikipedia page has a pretty good overview of the transformations. Rare Bear - Wikipedia
But, this caught my eye:
Before the 2009 races, the wing root mounted oil coolers were replaced with a boil-off oil cooling system. As a result, the outer halves of both wing root inlets were closed off.[12] Sporting yet another new paint scheme,[13] Rare Bear finished second in the final race with a speed of 479.088 mph (770.8 km/h).
It's quite an interesting history. I guess we could argue that the airframe is "original" but that would be a pretty loose definition in my book.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Hear hear!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
But that would make it like a full-contact sport?
Sort of like going to see a Hockey fight and a game breaks out!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Agree about the low altitude performance (Stead airport is 5000' MSL, they race almost on the deck). Any kind of supercharger or turbocharger is an advantage only if it ensures rapid acceleration either off the line or down the straightaway known as "The Valley of Speed." Many if not all sport class racers are turbocharged AFAIK.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I kind of agree to a point. The main draw in post war air racing were all the old warbirds (unlimiteds), which brought a level of nostalgia, but most were all based on airframes that were mass produced and then modified, as you say the "war" thingy." Although there were some custom built aircraft entered at the races in the unlimiteds over the years, IIRC none of them were all that successful. The formula racers brought a level of garage design and build as many were custom built for purpose. If you look at air racing during the 1930s, the efforts to bring in a winning design were in all classes. Today the sport and formula classes are the only pylon race classes that bring in that custom design where the aircraft has one purpose - to go around a closed course as fast as possible. I don't know how much longer WW2 airframes will be racing at Reno, but I'd like to see race aircraft built for purpose and not necessarily based on an obsolete WW2 design. My 2 cents!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
If I'm not mistaken I believe that system was designed by an engineer I used to work with, he was on the Rare Bear crew for many years.
- Thread starter
- #100
This is a good point, FLYBOYJ. For the past couple of years the unlimiteds have been dominated by essentially stock "plus" warbirds such as the Sea Fury Dreadnought. The talk around the race this year was that the unlimited class was becoming essentially a nostalgia vintage race. The real competition is in the sport class where the winning speed was only a few miles slower than the unlimited winner. The last great unlimited race was in 2017 IIRC between to p-51s: Strega and Voodoo.I kind of agree to a point. The main draw in post war air racing were all the old warbirds (unlimiteds), which brought a level of nostalgia, but most were all based on airframes that were mass produced and then modified, as you say the "war" thingy." Although there were some custom built aircraft entered at the races in the unlimiteds over the years, IIRC none of them were all that successful. The formula racers brought a level of garage design and build as many were custom built for purpose. If you look at air racing during the 1930s, the efforts to bring in a winning design were in all classes. Today the sport and formula classes are the only pylon race classes that bring in that custom design where the aircraft has one purpose - to go around a closed course as fast as possible. I don't know how much longer WW2 airframes will be racing at Reno, but I'd like to see race aircraft built for purpose and not necessarily based on an obsolete WW2 design. My 2 cents!
