Why American aces had lower scores than anybody else

[FLYBOYJ]

There should be a difference between Nigh and day fighters. For i think obvious reasons.

Absolutely! Mind you, I didn't compile this list and I know Dan and Nick are continuing their research so we might see more night fighters listed in the future.

 

[drgondog]

Sorry Greg - although we know "Papa Joe" was pretty brutal, many of the records released in 1991 CLEARLY show Soviet losses and do validate SOME of Hartman's claims.

Uncle Joe's impeccable loss and claim statistics far overstated UN actual 'losses' to Soviet fighters.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Uncle Joe's impeccable loss and claim statistics far overstated UN actual 'losses' to Soviet fighters.

"UN" as United Nations as in Korea?

 

[pbehn]

I read in a few books that when the Battle of France started RAF squadron leaders werent keen on making personal claims, it went against "team ethos" and encouraged glory hunting.

 

[GregP]

In Korea, according to Soviet claims, we lost more Sabres than we ever built. Yet we still got the vast majority back home and they flew on for many years. We are still flying a few of them around Chino, California.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

So, Hartmann had wingman Capito shot down, but not killed?

So, he lost a wingman in one sense and also didn't in another sense. Ain't it great how complicated a simple statement can get?

Let the fun begin!

Just to help fan the flames, here's my list of Hartmann's victory claims attached.

Also, most of Hartmann's claims have a German grid location. Does anybody have a grid location map or know where we can look at one online?

Hi Greg,

This site has many of the Luftwaffe maps, and some of them include the grid references, Przeglądarka skorowidzów. Also try Przeglądarka skorowidzów.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[ww2restorer]

My ex-wife was Russian. We discussed WW2 often as she had a strong connection to the war. One thing that she reminded me of was the true fact that Stalin made some very powerful orders.
a)There will be no surrender, no retreat.(thousands of Russians were slaughtered by Russians if they tried to retreat to a better position of defense.
B) Stalin's telegram warning to Ilyushin after moving there factory 3000km over the Ural mountains, that they were not producing enough aircraft, 'this is your last warning'. Stalin was a butcher and had no problems eliminating anyone he didn't like or what he didn't like to hear. He even banned production of Tupolev aircraft after he flew in one and encountered severe turbulence, which he considered a fault of the aircraft designers. That is why there is not many Tu aircraft action in the war, the were not manufactured.
I for one wouldn't put to much credit to Russian records, especially from WW2

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Having worked with a lot of Soviet air force records from 1944 and 1945, I can confirm that they are extensive, comprehensive and accurate. On days when they suffered heavy losses, details on all the losses are included. There is no censoring or under-reporting. Records exist for all levels of command, from Air Army down to Regiment, and the level of detail is a little overwhelming at times.

For example, losses for the 3rd Air Army for a single day in the summer of 1944 are listed below, based on the 3rd Air Army operations report and war diary:

Il-2 (ml.Lt Pershin, 761.ShAP) damaged by AAA, crashed on landing on the east skirt of airfield Milniai, crew badly injured
Il-2 (ml.Lt Kornilov, 766.ShAP) damaged by AAA, forced landed 7 km NW Saločiai, condition of the crew and plane unknown. Update 18.8.44: damaged by fighters, forced landed near Saločiai, the plane burned out, pilot died of burns on 17.8.44, air gunner st.Sgt Lidin WIA, returned on 18.8.44.
Il-2 (ml.Lt Yefremov, 766.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (ml.Lt Otechenko, 949.ShAP) damaged by AAA, forced landed in Rogumi, condition of the crew and plane unknown. Update 16.8.44: Il-2 (ml.Lt Otechenko, air gunner Raisov) damaged by AAA, forced landed in Rugume (13 km SE Bauska), crew returned
Il-2 (ml.Lt Nikishin, 949.ShAP) downed by AAA
Il-2 (ml.Lt Gabaidullin, 949.ShAP) damaged by fighters, forced landed near airfield Milniai, the plane crashed, pilot safe, air gunner badly WIA. Update:
Il-2 (Cpt Belousov, 594.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (Lt Mironov, 594.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (Lt Chernovsky, 594.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (ml.Lt Grishin, 593.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (ml.Lt Shvaiko, 593.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (Lt Shelkovnikov, 593.ShAP) FTR
Il-2 (Lt Sherbakov, 593.ShAP) FTR
Il-2 (st.Lt Mironov, 826.ShAP) downed by fighters, crew baled out, safe, returned
Il-2 (ml.Lt Karpetskov, 826.ShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (Maj. Karpov, 826.ShAP) FTR. Update 17.8.44: crew returned, the plane intact on the place of forced landing 2 km SW Kovarsk [sic!]
Il-2 (Lt Krasavin, 826.ShAP) FTR. Update 17.8.44: crew returned, the plane broken 2 km SW Kovarsk
Il-2 (ml.Lt Sarichev, 826.ShAP) FTR
Il-2 (ml.Lt Kiyashko, 6.GShAP) downed by fighters
Il-2 (ml.Lt Mikhailov, 6.GShAP) forced landed [reason not mentioned] 3 km W Panevėžys, condition of the crew and plane unknown
Il-2 (ml.Lt Makhov, 6.GShAP) forced landed [reason not mentioned] 3 km W Panevėžys, condition of the crew and plane unknown
Il-2 (ml.Lt Mashonin, 6.GShAP) forced landed [reason not mentioned] near Žemeilis
Il-2 (Cpt Pavlov, 6.GShAP) forced landed [reason not mentioned] 6 km SW Bauska, condition of the crew and plane unknown. Update 17.8.44: crew returned, the plane damaged
Il-2 (ml.Lt Zaikin, 6.GShAP) forced landed [reason not mentioned] 6 km SW Bauska, condition of the crew and plane unknown. Update 17.8.44: crew returned, the plane damaged
Yak-9 (Lt-Col. Vinogradov, 65.GIAP) FTR
Yak-9 (Lt Chalenko, 64.GIAP) FTR
Airacobra (st.Lt Kolpakov, 17.IAP) downed by fighters
Airacobra (Lt Denisov, 68.GIAP) FTR
La-5 (Cpt Krupinin, 259.IAD) damaged by AAA, forced landed near Tagernai, the plane crashed, pilot safe, returned

I should also add that while the Soviet loss records are accurate, the victory claims submitted by their fighter pilots were very optimistic, to say the least ...

PS - I have to acknowledge the great help I have received from some Russian and Latvian colleagues in accessing and translating these records.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In Korea, according to Soviet claims, we lost more Sabres than we ever built. Yet we still got the vast majority back home and they flew on for many years. We are still flying a few of them around Chino, California.

Same for the F-80. I saw a site where they claimed something like 800~ were shot down by MiG-15s during the Korean war. At any given time I don't think there were more than 180 F-80s participating.

 

[special ed]

If my memory serves, Gunter Raul said in a video he was shot down five times. Apparently someone received "kill/victory" credits and yet he survived. In fact he credits his last shoot down with his remaining alive because he was recovering from wounds when the war ended.

Another incidence which may have some faulty memory details (the article is in a giant reference stack) occurred at a west coast fighter pilots assn meet where other Pacific flyers were invited. The particular year in the article was the first time Japanese flyers had been invited. During various discussions and chatter, a Japanese fighter pilot (may have been Ki-43) discovered that he and a B-24 had been in the same combat. The tail gunner claimed the fighter as it was last seen going down burning through the clouds and the Japanese pilot claimed the B-24 as he left it burning with an engine out. The best part, very memorable, was the photo of a large American and a short Japanese arms on each others shoulders with the caption from the tail gunner, "I'm very glad I didn't kill such a fine man."

 

[Jamoliva]

From the references I previously posted, here's a list of Luftwaffe aces claims researched for accuracy. As mentioned, those who did this research, in many cases bounced a segment of the individual's claims against allied records. In some cases the entire score was researched. Take it for what it's worth, I really don't have a dog in the fight but I'm more about verifying accuracy than historical traditions! Bolds by me...

Hans-Heinrich 'Kira' König: 28 of 28 (28) - 100%
Albert Espenlaub: 14 of 14 (14) - 100%
Otto Schulz: 51 of 52 (52) - 98.0%
Wolfgang Lippert: 28 of 29 (29) - 96.5%
Hans 'Bubi' Remmer: 27 of 28 (28) - 96.4%
Eduard "Edu" Neumann: 12 of 13 (13) - 92.3%
Peter Crump: 22 of 24 (31) - 91.6%
Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff: 31 of 34 (176) - 91.1%
Helmut Lent: 101 of 111 (113) - 90.9%
Herbert Huppertz: 50 of 55 (78) - 90.9%
Otto Fonnekold: 48 of 53 (136)- 90.5%
Heinrich Graf von Einsiedel: 19 of 21 (36) - 90.4%
Wilhelm Crinius: 47 of 52 (114) - 90.3%
Helmut Lipfert: 119 of 132 (203) - 90.1%
Heinrich Sturm: 27 of 30 (158) - 90.0%
Paul Galland: 18 of 20 - 90.0%
Gerhart Framm: 9 of 10 (10) - 90.0%
Franz Eckerle: 34 of 38 - 89.4%
Heinz Knoke: 25 of 28 - 89.2%
Rolf Pingel: 25 of 28 - 89.2%
Franz Beerenbrock: 32 of 36 - 88.8%
Klaus Mietusch: 54 of 61 - 88.5%
Otto Kittel: 106 of 120 (267) - 88.3%
Gerhard Homuth: 22 of 25 - 88.0%
Günther Specht: 29 of 33 - 87.8%
Werner Moelders: 99 of 113 - 87.6%
Wutz Galland: 47 of 54 - 87.0%
Joachim Brendel: 60 of 69 - 86.9%
Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt: 40 of 46 -86.9%
Gordon Gollob: 46 of 53 - 86.7%
Friedrich-Karl "Nasen" Müller: 23 of 30 - 86.6%
Joachim Muncheberg: 115 of 133 - 86.4%
Gunther Rall: 43 of 50 (275) - 86.0%
Heinz Baer: 97 of 113 - 85.8%
Hans Dortenmann: 22 of 26 - 84.6%
Werner "Quax" Quast: 11 of 13 - 84.6%
Hans-Joachim Marseille: 135 of 163 - 82.8%
Erich Gerlitz: 15 of 19 (19) : 78.9%
Adolf Galland: 80 of 102 - 78.4%
Georg-Peter Eder: 40 of 51 - 78.4%
Viktor Bauer: 40 of 52 - 76.9%
Herbert Rollwage: 43 of 57 - 75.4%
Siegfried Lemke: 42 of 56 - 75.0%
Hermann Graf: 71 of 100 (212) - 71.0%
Walter Nowotny: 35 of 51 (258) - 68.6%
Gerhard Barkhorn: 106 of 159 (301) - 66.6%
Erwin Sawallisch: 23 of 36 - 63.8%
Heinrich Bartels: 36 of 67 - 53.7%
Werner Schröer: 42 of 86 - 49%
Erich Hartmann: 31 of 72 (352) - 43.0%
Franz Stigler: 11 of 27 - 40.3%

This is Dan and Nick's FB site. Although Dan doesn't participate on here anymore (a story in it self) I find the detail in their research very accurate. Their page is quite interesting.

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Great list! I wonder if there's a list like this for the aces of Western allies too. I remember reading that at times claims even went over the number of total Luftwaffe aircraft that was operational that day. But I don't remember the source now. Maybe someone can direct us to such source?

 

[Jagdflieger]

I never heard the statement that he never lost a wingman broken down to "shot down or killed" before. I've seen the statement before, but only in a interview summary with Hartmann, and he didn't elaborate, just made the statement......

It was Hartmann himself who said that. If you read the book then you will know that Hartmann was explaining about him being very fortunate having Rottenfuehrer who took care of him
during his first 2-3 month of active duty. He then points out that many Rottenfuehrer were more interested in scoring own kills then taking care of the new pilots. As a result many new pilots and wing-man's lost their lives (KIA)- then he goes on that he is very proud that he never lost a wingman. Lost (verloren) in German language implies KIA not that he couldn't find his wingman.

Hartmann then explains that only one wingman (Capito) was hit and performed an emergency landing. Hartmann was furious about this incident because the former Ju 88 pilot wasn't familiar with the flying characteristics of the Bf 109 - and due to holding a higher rank then him - refused to follow Hartmann evasion orders.
In his book he had also stressed upon the issue that in his unit it was a common rule that not the higher rank, but the more experienced pilot during missions was in command.

Hope that helps to shed some light onto this issue.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It was Hartmann himself who said that. If you read the book then you will know that Hartmann was explaining about him being very fortunate having Rottenfuehrer who took care of him
during his first 2-3 month of active duty. He then points out that many Rottenfuehrer were more interested in scoring own kills then taking care of the new pilots. As a result many new pilots and wing-man's lost their lives (KIA)- then he goes on that he is very proud that he never lost a wingman. Lost (verloren) in German language implies KIA not that he couldn't find his wingman.

Hartmann then explains that only one wingman (Capito) was hit and performed an emergency landing. Hartmann was furious about this incident because the former Ju 88 pilot wasn't familiar with the flying characteristics of the Bf 109 - and due to holding a higher rank then him - refused to follow Hartmann evasion orders.
In his book he had also stressed upon the issue that in his unit it was a common rule that not the higher rank, but the more experienced pilot during missions was in command.

Hope that helps to shed some light onto this issue.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Oh I read the book "The Blond Knight of Germany" (about 40 years ago) and now remember that, (since you mentioned it), what I didn't remember was his wingman's name.

So he never lost a wingman (KIA) but he had one (Capito) shot down by another aircraft (Lazarev) because of not listening to instruction.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great list! I wonder if there's a list like this for the aces of Western allies too. I remember reading that at times claims even went over the number of total Luftwaffe aircraft that was operational that day. But I don't remember the source now. Maybe someone can direct us to such source?

Thanks - I believe the 2 folks I mentioned who put that list together did similar research of allied ace's claims as well

 

[Jagdflieger]

Oh I read the book "The Blond Knight of Germany" (about 40 years ago) and now remember that, (since you mentioned it), what I didn't remember was his wingman's name.

So he never lost a wingman (KIA) but he had one (Capito) shot down by another aircraft (Lazarev) because of not listening to instruction.

Yep..me too. I only remembered that the wing-man had an Italian sounding name, so I grabbed the book yesterday and reread that part.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[drgondog]

"UN" as United Nations as in Korea?

Yes. The Soviets claimed over 2000 F-86s, but I can't remember the statistics across the board

 

[Jagdflieger]

Yes. The Soviets claimed over 2000 F-86s, but I can't remember the statistics across the board

Now you can see as to how mighty the USAF was, during the Korean war

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[swampyankee]

A couple of points here:
One is that lying to others, especially for propaganda, is quite different from lying to oneself. The two are not mutually exclusive, e.g., US tobacco companies' internal memoranda regarding nicotine's addictiveness and cigarettes' health effects vs their public testimony (under oath, even!) and advertising (propaganda) and fossil fuel companies' internal memoranda on global warming vs their public pronouncements.
The other is that memories, especially long after an incident aren't particularly reliable. Indeed, quite a bit of scientific research has shown that eyewitness testimony is, in general, not reliable.
A third is that autobiographies are frequently mis-shelved in the non-fiction sections of libraries.

 

[SaparotRob]

I love your third point.

 

[drgondog]

Now you can see as to how mighty the USAF was, during the Korean war

Regards
Jagdflieger

Not sure what you meant, but USAF lost 146 - all types, of which were 76 F-86s - to USSR claims of 1,100. The Chinese admitted 379 and NKAF admitted 750.