Why did the British airforce adopted highly similar Hurricane and Spitfire at the same time?

Zippythehog said:

TLDR
So this may have been said. The Nazis wanted a war. The Empire, until Chamberlain was replaced, wanted peace. Typical of British industry, things were mainly cottage industries. The collusion of government and industry is a hallmark of National Socialism. The British did not focus on war material in a coordinated way until after September 1939.
This, associated with the, logical development in phases of the military specification (RAF) could suffice to be the answer.

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Hi
"Typical of British Industry, things were mainly cottage industries." Could you please define what you mean by this statement as "cottage industry" does not appear to define the main British industries (when compared with other countries) before, let alone during WW2?

Mike

In hopefully some form of chronological order.

RAF expansion Scheme J from 1937. "It provided for the reserve on an all-round basis of 150 percent of first-line strength. That was the percentage proper to Scheme F: it was carried over, apparently per incurium, into Schemes H and J. It was arrived at by taking varying rates of wastage for the different classes of aircraft - 210 per cent for medium bomber squadrons, 110 for fighter, and so on – and it was obviously applicable, as an over-all percentage, only to a force of a certain composition. It should have been reviewed when the ratio of heavy to medium bomber squadrons was altered. An over-all percentage should have been assessed, in fact for each scheme that was proposed. The intention was to provide in peace a reserve for the wastage during the first three months of war; the wastage for the fourth month would be met, it was assumed, from the Immediate Reserve and Workshops Reserve [The Immediate Reserve and Workshop Reserve were intended to amount to 75 percent of first line strength at home and 100 percent overseas. (Air Staff Memorandum of 11 October 1937, A.6521, "Organization and Supply in connection with a new Standard of Air Strength").] and that for the fifth and sixth month from the accumulating output of industry. If the time factor had thus been taken into account a figure of nearly 200 percent would have been found to be applicable to Scheme J. [Air Staff Memorandum off 11 October 1937, ubi supra.]"

Belgium purchased 20 Hurricanes and 16 Battles pre war, the final 7 Hurricanes arrived in November 1939.

A major problem for the RAF was pre war the schools worked a 5 day week with the regulars then trained the reservists on the weekends. When war was declared the reservists were called up plus the changes to allowed flying in wartime plus the beginning of the Empire Air Training Scheme. It caused significant throughput issues in the training system.

Graham Warner in the Bristol Blenheim reports at outbreak of war Fighter Command had 347 Hurricanes plus 53 in reserve or overseas, Spitfires 187+83. While Michael Bowyer in Interceptor Fighters reports end August 1939 a total of 475 Hurricanes had been delivered to the RAF, of which 75 lost, Spitfire 305 in, 27 out, Gladiator I 210 and 38, Gladiator II 224 and 0. Fighter Command's 30 single seat fighter squadrons authorised strength was 630, they had 570, 9 of which were awaiting disposal, 30 under repair, 486 serviceable for the 659 pilots on strength. Looking at the aircraft cards 73 Hurricanes have loss dates before 1 September 1939, 5 in 1938, the rest January to August 1939. The RAF Contract Cards say 174 Spitfires from the first order had Merlin II, to K9960, which would mean a change over in May 1939, the aircraft cards say the first 194 had Merlin II, to K9979 in June, the Merlin III enabled the 3 blade propellers.

Air 8/218 puts fighter Command Strength as of 31 July 1939 at 9 Spitfire, 17 Hurricane (1 still converting from Gladiators), 7 Blenheim, 3 Gladiator, 1 Gauntlet and 2 Hind squadrons, including the Auxiliary squadrons. Authorised strength 807 aircraft, 747 on strength, personnel authorised 596 officers, 432 airmen pilots, 7,032 men, had 664 officers, 176 airmen pilots, 6,939 men. As the airmen pilots deficiency is mostly in the auxiliary squadrons I suspect they were to be filled by the Volunteer Reserve.

AASF and RAF Component, initial deployment of 4 Hurricane, 10 Battle and 4 Blenheim squadrons. 607 and 615 Gladiator squadrons moved to France in November 1939. 40 squadron returned to Britain on 3 December and 15 squadron on 10 December, both changed from Battle to Blenheim and stayed in Britain, replaced in France by 114 and 139 squadrons with Blenheims. The remainder of 2 Group was scheduled to move to France but this was cancelled in December 1939 due to lack of suitable airfields. And that is about the way things stayed until May 1940, ignoring the reconnaissance units.

Air 22/234 the RAF in France as of 3 May 1940 had 4 Hurricane squadrons with 66 Hurricanes, plus 5 serviceable in ASU reserve plus 27 serviceable reserves in squadrons (25 of these with 607 and 615 squadrons), the 2 Gladiator squadrons had 23 Gladiators, the 8 Battle squadrons had 100 aircraft plus 71 reserves, the 2 Army Co-operation Blenheims squadrons had 23 aircraft, the other 4 Blenheim squadrons had 45 aircraft, seems Blenheim reserves were being held in Britain.

In 1939 production was 435 Spitfires to 586 Hurricanes but the second Hurricane line at Gloster and the "third" at Langley started in October 1939, the second Spitfire line started in June 1940, result 368 Spitfires and 1,028 Hurricanes built January to June 1940.

Wood and Dempster in The Narrow Margin appendix 12 have a table of RAF losses 10 May to 20 June 1940 by headquarters and by type of aircraft. The grand total is 933 aircraft, including 137 Battles, 196 Blenheims, 384 Hurricanes and 67 Spitfires. These are losses or failed to return from France by all RAF commands. As of 1 July cumulative RAF combat losses were 358 bombers, 517 fighters, 104 other operational types, total 979. There are other totals, for example, The Bomber Command Losses series, which does track the Battle squadrons reports 153 Battles lost in France, including 22 on the ground. Graham Warner in the Bristol Blenheim lists 247 Blenheim losses, including during training, write offs and 33 abandoned.

Air 22/33 says as of 1 July 1940 the 19 Spitfire Squadrons had an establishment of 304 aircraft, of which 243 were serviceable. Air 20/2037 says as of 7 July 19 Spitfire Squadrons establishment 314 aircraft and actually had 349 backed by 118 aircraft in ASU and 100 under repair at the CRO.

Bombing Italy from France.

Given the problems the allies had finding airfields for the RAF units deployed to France adding the then heavy bombers would make things worse, I wonder how compatible octane ratings were, plus all the other supply requirements, plus the need to defend the airfields.

Bomber Command War Diaries by Middlebrook and Everitt, this is what they say, Entry for 11/12 June 1940

Following Italy's declaration of war on France and Britain on 10 June, 36 Whitleys were despatched to Italy. They refuelled in the Channel Islands before their long flight over France and the Alps to bomb factories in Turin. 23 aircraft were not able to reach Italy because of difficult weather over the Alps. 9 aircraft bombed Turin but not the designated factories, most bombed railway yards. Turin reports 17 people killed and 40 injured. 2 other aircraft bombed targets in Genoa. Both cities were fully lit up, as in peacetime, when the bombers arrived. Turin's lights were turned off during the raid but Genoa's were not. A Whitley of 77 squadron crashed in flames near Le Mans. (snip of crew details, they were all killed) A further Whitley crashed in France." End quote. Bomber Command War losses state 1 Whitley lost from the raid on Italy and another lost from operations in the battle area in France, not the Italian raid.

Entry for 15/16 June 1940. Bomber Command established a small detachment at the French airfield of Salon, near Toulon, so that raids could be more easily carried out against Italian targets. 8 Wellingtons from this force were despatched to Genoa but only 1 bombed.

Entry for 16/17 June 1940. Genoa, Milan, 22 Wellingtons, 14 bombed. There were no losses.

The next Bomber Command raids on Italy were on 13/14 August 1940.

From RAF squadrons by Jefford. Units using the Salon airfield.

37 squadron, Wellington, sent a detachment in October 1939, no date is given for recall.

75 squadron, Wellington, sent a detachment in May 1940, no date is given for recall. Note 75 was considered a New Zealand squadron, formed using some RNZAF men in England.

99 squadron, Wellington, sent a detachment in September 1939, no date is given for recall.

149 squadron Wellington, sent a detachment in March 1940, no date is given for recall.

If Jefford is right these are the only RAF units to have ever used the airfield.

According to Wood and Dempster Fighter Command had an establishment of 1,456 pilots as of 15 June 1940 and had 1,094, by end October 1940 the figures were 1,727 and 1,735., while holding the number of aircraft available for operations around the mid 700's for much of the August to October period.

Luftwaffe Quartermaster, I think aircraft in operational units, Single Engine Fighters and Bombers as defined by the RAF, dive bombers are counted separate to bombers.

Wild_Bill_Kelso said:

Interestingly Lysanders were also used as bombers and CAS strike aircraft in the very early days in North Africa too.

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This was rather their job. Telling in the Lysander losses in the Battle of France is the paucity of survivor tales compared even to the Battles. With up to 580lb of bombs and two fixed machine guns they were capable of doing quite some damage. At ground level they had much the same performance as a Blackburn Roc fighter and the same load as a SkuA. Surviving the process was another question. Hence they were replaced with Hurricanes and Tomahawks not a better Lysander.

MikeMeech said:

Hi
"Typical of British Industry, things were mainly cottage industries." Could you please define what you mean by this statement as "cottage industry" does not appear to define the main British industries (when compared with other countries) before, let alone during WW2?

Mike

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Alas many still think that Rolls Royce Merlins were hand-crafted until Packard in the US "showed the Brits how to mass-produce them"...and this despite the fact that Rolls Royce in the UK produced over 100,000 engines, far more than any other combination of production lines. Yep...cottage industry for sure!

Zippythehog said:

TLDR
So this may have been said. The Nazis wanted a war. The Empire, until Chamberlain was replaced, wanted peace. Typical of British industry, things were mainly cottage industries. The collusion of government and industry is a hallmark of National Socialism. The British did not focus on war material in a coordinated way until after September 1939.
This, associated with the, logical development in phases of the military specification (RAF) could suffice to be the answer.

Click to expand...

History was very unkind to Chamberlain, everything Churchill had to fight with when he started was ordered on Chamberlain's watch as Chancellor (finance minister) 1932-37 or Prime Minister !937-40. The UK had a far bigger navy, the German navy had a few impressive battleships that spent most of the war in port or being chased and sunk. The UK outproduced Germany in aircraft from mid 1940 to the end of the war and there was little difference in the number of tanks produced, though quality of design is an issue. Germany didnt actually want a war, it wanted to make massive gains against unprepared opponents, as they did in Poland, Norway, Denmark Belgium France the Balkans and Russia upto end of 1941. They didnt want a war that included things like Stalingrad and thousand bomber raids on their cities both of which came in 1942, this prompted them to fully mobilize for war in 1943, by which time it was too late, by the end of 1943 the only question was how long they could hold out and where the border would be. Chamberlain would have been replaced anyway, he was a sick man who died of cancer on 9th November 1940 that is just 9 days after the Battle of Britain officially ended.

buffnut453 said:

Alas many still think that Rolls Royce Merlins were hand-crafted until Packard in the US "showed the Brits how to mass-produce them"...and this despite the fact that Rolls Royce in the UK produced over 100,000 engines, far more than any other combination of production lines. Yep...cottage industry for sure!

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Appearances are deceptive. This is a typical British cottage, honestly there are several million dotted here and there.

This is what they are like inside, quite remarkable really.

Roy Fedden asked the same question after he visited Germany in June and September 1937 to view the aviation industry. In his report to the Air Staff when he returned, he stated:

"It is felt that there is tendency to consider too many types of aircraft in this country for the Royal Air Force, instead of cutting down the number and paying more attention to simplification of design and increased production facilities, rather than striving for the last mile an hour."
"Fedden" Bill Gunston 1998

Not only did they ignore him then, the very next decade there were three V bombers made for the same mission.

pbehn said:

Appearances are deceptive. This is a typical British cottage, honestly there are several million dotted here and there.
View attachment 699491
This is what they are like inside, quite remarkable really.
View attachment 699492

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WOW!
Is that where they knitted Merlin's?

How many of those cottages did it take to build HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney?

SaparotRob said:

How many of those cottages did it take to build HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney?

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SaparotRob said:

WOW!
Is that where they knitted Merlin's?

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This is a typical Merlin factory, they require lots of air to test them.


Here is a typical battleship assembly cottage system Rodney was made in the cottages on the left.

SaparotRob said:

WOW!
Is that where they knitted Merlin's?

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You are trying to trick us aren't you? Everybody knows they thach weaved them.

That large building on the hill: is that where the Lord and overseers reside?

It does offer a grand view of the minions as they go about their tasks.

Simon Thomas said:

Roy Fedden asked the same question after he visited Germany in June and September 1937 to view the aviation industry. In his report to the Air Staff when he returned, he stated:

"It is felt that there is tendency to consider too many types of aircraft in this country for the Royal Air Force, instead of cutting down the number and paying more attention to simplification of design and increased production facilities, rather than striving for the last mile an hour."
"Fedden" Bill Gunston 1998

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That was sort of true in 1937 but the UK was still in process of preparing for war and it was Germanys war. When the conflict started things were different. Germany never produced a satisfactory 4 engined bomber, the UK produced 3 and although the Stirling wasnt very good they still found work for it laying mines and towing gliders. UK 4 engined bombers equalled German production of Ju 88s which was its only satisfactory bomber and its only real multi role A/C. They never produced an aircraft carrier, the UK did and also produced just under 10,000 naval aircraft of all types. When the conflict started Germany was outproduced completely by the UK and Commonwealth alone, the USA produced more than the UK and Germany combined. When you throw in Russian production which was also considerable the question to be asked was "Adolf, what were you playing at"? German industry was not at all geared up for the war he embarked upon.

pbehn said:

Appearances are deceptive. This is a typical British cottage, honestly there are several million dotted here and there.
View attachment 699491
This is what they are like inside, quite remarkable really.
View attachment 699492

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That image, plus the one of Whitby Abbey tells me what part of the world you're from! My in-laws all hail from near Pickering - lovely country.

pbehn said:

That was sort of true in 1937 but the UK was still in process of preparing for war and it was Germanys war. When the conflict started things were different. Germany never produced a satisfactory 4 engined bomber, the UK produced 3 and although the Stirling wasnt very good they still found work for it laying mines and towing gliders. UK 4 engined bombers equalled German production of Ju 88s which was its only satisfactory bomber and its only real multi role A/C. They never produced an aircraft carrier, the UK did and also produced just under 10,000 naval aircraft of all types. When the conflict started Germany was outproduced completely by the UK and Commonwealth alone, the USA produced more than the UK and Germany combined. When you throw in Russian production which was also considerable the question to be asked was "Adolf, what were you playing at"? German industry was not at all geared up for the war he embarked upon.

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German industry was geared up for the war Hitler wanted. It was not geared up for the war he got.

This all comes down to the law of unintended consequences. Always assuming you're right, and that your enemies are idiots, and failing to conduct "what if" analysis will inevitably lead to bad decisions.

SaparotRob said:

WOW!
Is that where they knitted Merlin's?

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It all stemmed from a much earlier English cottage industry. The propaganda of the time was able to take advantage with their rousing campaign, urging the cottage wigmakers to take up the cause with 'Merkins to Merlins!'

(Though it gets confusing, as of course the Packard Merlin was *made* by 'Merkins)

GrauGeist said:

That large building on the hill: is that where the Lord and overseers reside?

It does offer a grand view of the minions as they go about their tasks.

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It had two main uses, the first was setting the date for Easter in AD 664 (Synod of Whitby) and the second was target practice for the German high seas fleet in WW1 It was already a ruin due to the dissolution of monasteries but was ruined a bit more. Raid on Scarborough, Hartlepool and Whitby - Wikipedia

SplitRz said:

That image, plus the one of Whitby Abbey tells me what part of the world you're from! My in-laws all hail from near Pickering - lovely country.

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My uncle was custodian of Pickering castle for years, his brother who I hardly knew ran Scarborough crematorium, my father worked on the railway there until it shut and they moved to Thornaby. I agree its a great place, as a custodian John had a free pass to every historic monument and took me to all of them, he was a local historian himself.

pbehn said:

It had two main uses, the first was setting the date for Easter in AD 664 (Synod of Whitby) and the second was target practice for the German high seas fleet in WW1 It was already a ruin due to the dissolution of monasteries but was ruined a bit more. Raid on Scarborough, Hartlepool and Whitby - Wikipedia

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My grandfather was carried out of his parents house on the headland in Hartlepool as a baby in 1914 as the shells rained down.

This chap directed the 6" gun emplacement that managed to land a shell on Derflinger. He shares the family name and has an uncanny resemblance to my father. I wonder if Great Grandma was keeping a secret?!

SplitRz said:

My grandfather was carried out of his parents house on the headland in Hartlepool as a baby in 1914 as the shells rained down.

This chap directed the 6" gun emplacement that managed to land a shell on Derflinger. He shares the family name and has an uncanny resemblance to my father. I wonder if Great Grandma was keeping a secret?!

View attachment 699513

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My boss used to live on the headland (I worked in Hartlepool), I used to made stained glass lamp shades there with Chris Reas wife and a few others. (very long story). Hartlepool headland was also bombarded by Americans during the war of independence.