Why was Nagumo in command at Santa Cruz?

[SaparotRob]

Which is why they may have not gone to war unless they were attacked.

So my idea is that.

And on that I think you and I agree. I don't think the USA would've gone to war if not itself directly attacked. Including the PI. Yes, the US was in an undeclared war in the Atlantic. I imagine most Americans weren't too happy with it or aware of it or wanted to be aware of it. Of what I've read (not much), America was very isolationist.

 

[RCAFson]

So it was the United State's responsability to immediately go to war when the Japanese attacked European colonies?

Where were the Europeans when Manchuria or China was over-run?

At least the U.S. was taking diplomatic actions by emplacing embargoes on exports to Japan in the hopes that they would cease their military expansion.

It all boils down to the fact that the U.S. did not want to be involved in any war.

The USA had by far the lowest casualty rate of all the larger nations engaged in WW2. The USA achieved this by carefully allying itself to anti Axis powers to prevent the Axis from gaining control of vital areas and strategic resources to feed their war machines.

If the USA gave the Axis a free hand around the globe, then when the USA was finally attacked (as it was at Pearl Harbor and the subsequent Nazi war declaration), the USA might have been defeated, or won but at the cost of millions or tens of millions of fatal casualties.

For life of me, I cannot fathom this attitude that somehow the USA was doing the rest of the world a favour when what really happened was that the USA was handed a relatively bloodless victory because it kept it's Allies in the ring, and prevented a scenario where they had to fight the Axis single handed.

It all boils down to the fact that the America First movement, was really just a Nazi front organization, and by 1941 the USA public had seen through this and were prepared for war with the Axis, because they knew that America, however strong, was not strong enough without powerful Allies. Unfortunately the myths of the America First movement keep getting revived.

 

[special ed]

I found the book by Duane P. Schultz, The Maverick War: Chennault and the Flying Tigers, to have considerable insight as to what was going on in China with U.S. involvement. Roosevelt's hand was more in it than I had known before Schultz's work. There is also much insight to Chennault leading up to his adventures in China. A secondary purpose to the Doolittle raid was to deliver B-25s to the Nationalist forces. Also, interesting info on the recruitment of the tigers, pilots and ground crew. Lots of info on the logistics, repairs, etc.

 

[GrauGeist]

The USA had by far the lowest casualty rate of all the larger nations engaged in WW2. The USA achieved this by carefully allying itself to anti Axis powers to prevent the Axis from gaining control of vital areas and strategic resources to feed their war machines.

If the USA gave the Axis a free hand around the globe, then when the USA was finally attacked (as it was at Pearl Harbor and the subsequent Nazi war declaration), the USA might have been defeated, or won but at the cost of millions or tens of millions of fatal casualties.

For life of me, I cannot fathom this attitude that somehow the USA was doing the rest of the world a favour when what really happened was that the USA was handed a relatively bloodless victory because it kept it's Allies in the ring, and prevented a scenario where they had to fight the Axis single handed.

It all boils down to the fact that the America First movement, was really just a Nazi front organization, and by 1941 the USA public had seen through this and were prepared for war with the Axis, because they knew that America, however strong, was not strong enough without powerful Allies. Unfortunately the myths of the America First movement keep getting revived.

You cannot be serious...
The US had considerable oil reserves, iron, copper, nickel, aluminum and other nessecary metals (including uranium and plutonium), vast wood sources, infinite food sources as well as sprawling manufacturing and naval facilities.
What could the secret Nazi Americans possibly need from other nations that would enhance or improved her ability to manufacture machines and weapons of war?

America's casualty rates were lower than some nations because she was late in entry as well as not being involved directly in the land war on the Eastern front or in China proper, but her 420,000 military deaths closely matched that of the UK's 450,000 - so following that logic, what did Britain do, hold back while other nations did the heavy lifting? Hmmm?

I call bullshit on that entire post.

 

[The Basket]

A shadow has fallen on our gentlemanly conversation. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[SaparotRob]

We'll still have the Groundhog.

 

[GrauGeist]

A shadow has fallen on our gentlemanly conversation. This is why we can't have nice things.

Indeed

 

[RCAFson]

You cannot be serious...
The US had considerable oil reserves, iron, copper, nickel, aluminum and other nessecary metals (including uranium and plutonium), vast wood sources, infinite food sources as well as sprawling manufacturing and naval facilities.
What could the secret Nazi Americans possibly need from other nations that would enhance or improved her ability to manufacture machines and weapons of war?

America's casualty rates were lower than some nations because she was late in entry as well as not being involved directly in the land war on the Eastern front or in China proper, but her 420,000 military deaths closely matched that of the UK's 450,000 - so following that logic, what did Britain do, hold back while other nations did the heavy lifting? Hmmm?

I call bullshit on that entire post.

What the America First movement wanted was an Axis victory.

The UK's per capita death rate was ~3 times higher than the USA's.

Again, you want to create a scenario where the USA has to fight the Axis alone, or become it's defacto ally.

BTW, the USA was dependent on imported bauxite, uranium and nickel.

 

[Peter Gunn]

*SNIP*

For life of me, I cannot fathom this attitude that somehow the USA was doing the rest of the world a favour when what really happened was that the USA was handed a relatively bloodless victory because it kept it's Allies in the ring, and prevented a scenario where they had to fight the Axis single handed.

*SNIP*

I skipped over the other drivel in your post as not worth the effort, but this, there is no way I'll let this slide. I'd like your definition of "bloodless" because I'm sure it will be quite a creative description.

I generally ignore your thinly veiled anti-American bias because you usually have something interesting to say and post sources/references. Points for that.

But this? I considered several responses, but most were vulgar and rather offensive language wise and they were suggestions what you can do with/to yourself. So you can fill in the blanks on that score, be creative.

 

[Peter Gunn]

You agree with with most of my posts?
I am not sure if I am honoured or horrified!

*SNIP*

Eh, horrified is probably a safe bet.

 

[The Basket]

Eh, horrified is probably a safe bet.

I am always correct so I can see your point of view.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

"Americans handed a relatively bloodless victory" ... Yeah, sure.

This chauvinism is unbecoming and should be beneath you.

 

[RCAFson]

I skipped over the other drivel in your post as not worth the effort, but this, there is no way I'll let this slide. I'd like your definition of "bloodless" because I'm sure it will be quite a creative description.

I generally ignore your thinly veiled anti-American bias because you usually have something interesting to say and post sources/references. Points for that.

But this? I considered several responses, but most were vulgar and rather offensive language wise and they were suggestions what you can do with/to yourself. So you can fill in the blanks on that score, be creative.

So where's your outrage over the suggestion that the USA should have stood idly by and let the Axis win? Where's the outrage over the fact that the Nazi deathcamps would have been run full throttle with no USA intervention? If you want to cheer on the Nazis then have the guts to say it plainly, rather than hide behind a pretend outrage at my supposed anti-American bias.

 

[Peter Gunn]

So where's your outrage over the suggestion that the USA should have stood idly by and let the Axis win? Where's the outrage over the fact that the Nazi deathcamps would have been run full throttle with no USA intervention? If you want to cheer on the Nazis then have the guts to say it plainly, rather than hide behind a pretend outrage at my supposed anti-American bias.

Really? THAT's where you went with this? Your flailing response that resorts to erroneously calling me a Nazi?

Playground name calling, I shouldn't be surprised, the last resort of someone that can't support their point of view.

And your anti-American bias is not "supposed".

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Enough! Knock it off with the name calling.

The next person to accuse someone of being a Nazi can go play elsewhere.

R RCAFson , last and only warning.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The USA had by far the lowest casualty rate of all the larger nations engaged in WW2. The USA achieved this by carefully allying itself to anti Axis powers to prevent the Axis from gaining control of vital areas and strategic resources to feed their war machines.

If the USA gave the Axis a free hand around the globe, then when the USA was finally attacked (as it was at Pearl Harbor and the subsequent Nazi war declaration), the USA might have been defeated, or won but at the cost of millions or tens of millions of fatal casualties.

For life of me, I cannot fathom this attitude that somehow the USA was doing the rest of the world a favour when what really happened was that the USA was handed a relatively bloodless victory because it kept it's Allies in the ring, and prevented a scenario where they had to fight the Axis single handed.

It all boils down to the fact that the America First movement, was really just a Nazi front organization, and by 1941 the USA public had seen through this and were prepared for war with the Axis, because they knew that America, however strong, was not strong enough without powerful Allies. Unfortunately the myths of the America First movement keep getting revived.

And the next person to insult the brave men and the honor of those who fought and died to end this war (of any nationality), can take their attitude and anti-whatever bias and pack sand. It will not be tolerated.

Relatively bloodless victory my ass! Spoken like a person who never put their life on the line for anything.

 

[Marcel]

May I present to you Margraten in Limburg, The Netherlands. The most bloodless cemetery in the world. Only about 8000 dead US soldiers rest here without having spilled any blood. Most bloodless victory indeed.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

And the next person to insult the brave men and the honor of those who fought and died to end this war (of any nationality), can take their attitude and anti-whatever bias and pack sand. It will not be tolerated.

Relatively bloodless victory my ass! Spoken like a person who never put their life on the line for anything.

View attachment 623637

My grandfather died in a -17 somewhere over Europe or the North Sea. Over 400,000 American families have the same story to tell.

 

[Shortround6]

I sometimes wonder what Japan's leaders would have thought had Germany declared war on the US in 1940, thus provoking earlier mobilization of the US war economy.

The "story" that the US was a sleeping giant that only woke up when the Japanese attacked Peral Harbor is a popular one and often repeated but is far from factual.
It belongs in a greatest myths thread.
The Giant had woken up in 1939, cooked and eaten a hardy breakfast in 1940, did some house keeping, changed clothes, warmed up and headed out the door in 1941 and by early 1942 had gone down the walk, made the turn down the side walk and was running at near full speed.

See. FDR's Fifty Thousand Airplanes - Air Force Magazine

May 16th 1940 President Roosevelt was calling for an Air Force of 50,000 planes (the USAAC had about 1200 in 1939, mostly obsolete) with the capability of manufacturing 50,000 a year.
He asked for 896 million dollars to start this program. The US may not have hit all the numbers but new factories were being built on bare plots of ground by the fall of 1940. Commissions/government agencies were allocating resources from machine tools to structural steel for the factories to help ensure efficient distribution (and stop price gouging).

The US built 1685 fighters in 1940, only 373 of them were built from Jan through the end of May. In 1941 the US built 3217 fighters of the 5 most popular types in the first 11 months, not counting Dec. December added about 626 fighters. These figures do not include P-43s, P-66s or Buffalos built in 1941.

One report claims the US built 11,944 combat aircraft in 1940 and 1941. does not include trainers or transports.

This also does not take into account American tank/armored vehicle production or the different fleet ship building programs (11 Essex class carriers ordered at different times in 1940, 2 more in Dec 1941 and 10 more in Aug of 1942, shows that the US did not wait until Pearl Harbor for a major fleet expansion).

 

[SaparotRob]

My grandfather died in a -17 somewhere over Europe or the North Sea. Over 400,000 American families have the same story to tell.

I was going to post this in the What Are You Watching thread. I just watched "The Swamp Ghost" on PBS. Those guys up there, kids, in these planes. I had an uncle who was part of a B-24 squadron somewhere in the Pacific. Another uncle part of an airlift unit flying the "Hump". Regret not talking to them about it when I had the chance. I just took a look at Dad's medals. He was involved in the defense of the Ardennes Pocket. I know I lost a cousin on D-Day. It wasn't bloodless.