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'' ...Overall though I'd say what the French were really missing was another 3-6 months to get ready. Maybe if they and the British had sent arms to Poland or put tanks and artillery in Belgium early on, I don't know. I'm sure delaying the war was impossible but if they had some more time, their air defense would have been quite a bit more formidable. They had ignored the problem for a long time but by late 1939 they were scrambling fast to get it together, and they had put together some nice aircraft....''
That would not have cured some flawed combat doctrines.
In my notes I have the HS 12Z having passed its type test at 1300 ch at 2650 rpm. The report I read said this was its max output at that time (January 1940) with 1100 ch as its international rating. The report did not say what grade fuel was used for the type test.
The 1500-1600 ch 12Z variants were post-war (I think).
That would not have cured some flawed combat doctrines.
Pilots were genrally well trained but the tactics were not on par with those of the opponents. Better planes and time would have helped but also new combat concepts would also have had to be taken in consideration. What did not help too was being on the defensive side in a dynamic form of war.For those of us not aware, could you elaborate a little?
Don't believe everything you read on Wiki.So the D.520 is slightly bigger, slightly faster, better armed, has double the range, and is made of stressed skin instead of questionably laminated wood*. Probably better protected and armored too, and has a working radio, and a variable pitch propeller. Plus a built in fire suppression system! And slow walking communist unions or not, French planes built in 1939-40 had a much better production / manufacturing standard than what the Soviets were making probably even by late 1942.
The Type 89 engine was the 12Z engine. Confusing but that was Hispano-Suiza.They definitely had a little room for improvement for the HS 12Y - they certainly had the 12Y-51 at 1,000 hp, but were already testing 1,200 hp variants (12Y-89) and the 1,600 hp 12Z which was supposed to go into the VG-39bis. The French seemed to think they were going to work and I've yet to see convincing evidence they wouldn't, eventually. The question is when, how soon could they have them working and in new planes.
Ok, so what does a 1200 ho.D.520 or VG.39 look like?
Performance-wise? Something like the MC.202, Spitfire V or Bf 109F1 or F2.
Right. And I kind of wonder if this is partly why the Italians, Bulgarians etc. seemed to be fairly effective with these into 1943, maybe they were putting a bit better engines in them?
Even if you assume that all of Shortround6s disparagement of the HS 12-Y engines and D.520 etc. are legit, which I'm not sure I buy them all, a D.520 certainly looks fairly formidable to me especially if it gets a few more months of development and time for pilots to familiarize themselves with them.
To me that is the big "What If" for the Battle of France. If it could have been delayed maybe to fall, at least on the aviation side the French may have had a little more of an impact. On the ground side, the French had some pretty god tanks (SOMUA-S-35 had a couple of issues but if those were fixed, like the welded shut hatch, I think this thing was pretty scary for a Pz III driver) they would have had formidable armor too. The main problem was French bureaucracy, leadership and the overall organization of their military.
But the Germans relied quite heavily on their aircraft for their victory, especially Stukas, in a few key battles. If victory hadn't been so swift, the French would have had time to react, to receive aid. The US was already selling them aircraft. Is it that unlikely they may have sent bullets and gasoline? As it was I think they lost something like 1,400 planes over France? If the French had say another 90 days to familiarize themselves with new types and receive a few more of the modern planes (some of which were being built very fast, like the LeO 45) the German advantage in the air may not have been so solid.
If it could have been delayed maybe to fall, at least on the aviation side the French may have had a little more of an impact.
If the Norwegian campaign happens as in the original time, Germany is out a bunch of destroyers and a cruiser or two. Not a good position to be in when your up against the world's largest navy.
Quite right.As long as tank warfare was concerned, even with generally well armored and armed tanks, somes flaws were :
- the one or two men turret ;
- defective communications (lack of radio in tanks)
A lot depends on how fast they could fix the HS 12-Y engines.
Forget the 12Z engine.
The D 520 and the AV 33 had potential. But it was a bit more limited than some other planes.
There also had to be a lot happen in 90 days.
It is also one thing for the US to "sell" Fuel. Were the French short of fuel?
Don't bother to trot out the 100 octane fuel line of thought. The French engines that were in service weren't goin to survive 100 octane fuel and higher boost pressures.
The post war 12Z engines (and clones) were rated at about 8.6 lbs of boost even on the versions that were rated on 100/130.
The British (and Americans) were very lucky (and RR forward thinking) that the Merlin (and Allison) had the mechanical strength to stand up to the higher boost pressure
The D. 520 had armor behind the seat. I don't believe it had protected fuel tanks. It may not have had BP glass. I would like some details about the "fire protection" system.
Was it a system to put out engine fires? Was it to safe guard against fires when starting up? It was more than many other fighters had but it may not have been protection for combat damage. In the spring/summer of 1940 very few fighters had the protection that fighters in 1941 did. But it cost. The Spitfire II with it's Merlin XII engine was very similar in performance to the Spitfire I. Most of the extra power was used up carrying extra protection (and the Spit still didn't have very well protected tanks) and operational equipment (like the IFF and aerials).
Before I am accused of being anti British the P-40 Tomahawks showing up in the fall of 1940 didn't have armor or self sealing tanks (nor did the Martlets and anytihng else the British were getting) It was a time of transition for combat aircraft and it took months if not well over year for The Germans and British to make the transition. And sometimes even then older versions in out of the way places didn't get the new improvements.
You want D 520s with extra performance? OK, stick in the 12Y-51 engine, just don't put self sealing tanks, BP glass, better radios or think about a belt feed cannon. Add a few hundred pounds and some of the performance goes away. This assumes your 12Y-51 engines perform like they are supposed to. From Wiki :
"The Swiss continued development of the MS.412 when French involvement stopped following the June 1940 Armistice. The Dornier-Altenrhein factory completed a prototype powered with a licensed-produced HS-51 12Y engine, generating 790.4 kW (1,060 hp) together with the fixed radiator and revised exhausts as tested on the MS.411, in October 1940.[4] The new type retained the armament changes and other improvements introduced on the D.3800.[36][37] This series was put into production in 1941 as the D-3801 with continued deliveries until 1945 with 207 completed. Another 17 were built from spares between 1947 and 1948.[36] Reliability of the new engine was at first extremely poor, with problems with crankshaft bearings causing several accidents. The engine problems slowed deliveries, with only 16 aircraft produced in 1942 and a single aircraft delivered in 1943. The engine problems were eventually resolved in 1944.[37] With 790.4 kW (1,060 hp) from the Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51, the speed was boosted to 534 km/h (332 mph),"
It took the Swiss over two years to fix the HS-51 12Y engine. It wasn't going to happen in 90 days in France.
There were reasons the H-S engines were so light. But those reasons also severely limited development potential. Up until the -51 engines the H-S engines were limited to 2400rpm.
The H-S crankshafts had dampers but were "totally devoid of counterbalances". * H-S engines were built with the use of exiting production machinery very much in mind. The 12Y used the same 170mm bore spacing as the 300hp V-8 of WW I.
The -51 engine got bigger intake valves (one per cylinder) and they allowed an extra 100 rpm for max power. But it called for redesigned camshafts to make them more rigid and added reinforcement to the top and bottom of the crankcase. The -51 engine picked up about 10 kg in weight over the earlier versions because of the reinforcements.
In 1938 H-S made an offer to Alfa Romeo to license the -51 engine including the supply of H-S production machinery. Alfa Romeo didn't take them up on it.
The bore spacing thing is one reason the Russian engines used a 148mm bore instead of the H-S 150mm bore. Think about it. The H-S engine had 20mm for two cylinder walls and the water jacket.
The H-S engine was a very good engine for the late 1920s and early 30s. By 1938-39 it was like trying bring back the Curtiss Conqueror (which in many ways was a more modern engine).