Why was the Bf 110 obsolete as a night fighter
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No.
14th September 1940.
Zerstorer Bf 110 C 151
Bf 110 D 103
I make that 254.
Nightfighters Bf 110 C + D 41
There were also 37 recconnaissance aircraft (Bf 110 C-5)
The Me 410 was never seriously considered as a nightfighter because Galland,with he support of Milch,wanted it as a day fighter. Von Lossberg said on several occassions that it was unsuitable for night time flying. On 30th July 1943 he said "operating the Me 410 at night would be didastrous".
The He 219 and Do 335 were to be the night fighters of choice.
Cheers
Steve
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
That may be on hand strength but it certainly wasn't authorized strength. Hence all sorts of aircraft such as Me-109 day fighter and Do-217 heavy bomber were used in night fighter units for lack of enough Me-110s.
22 June 1940. NJG1 activated.
1 September 1940. NJG2 activated.
18 April 1941. NJG4 activated.
29 September 1941. NJG3 activated.
30 September 1942. NJG5 activated.
10 August 1943. NJG6 activated.
February 1944. NJG7 activated.
Authorized strength should be about 100 aircraft per geschwader. Plus additional Me-110s for night fighter training units and spares to replace combat losses.
Me-110 or whatever replaces it must be produced in large numbers to keep night fighter geschwader at full strength.
22 June 1940. NJG1 activated.
1 September 1940. NJG2 activated.
18 April 1941. NJG4 activated.
29 September 1941. NJG3 activated.
30 September 1942. NJG5 activated.
10 August 1943. NJG6 activated.
February 1944. NJG7 activated.
Authorized strength should be about 100 aircraft per geschwader. Plus additional Me-110s for night fighter training units and spares to replace combat losses.
Me-110 or whatever replaces it must be produced in large numbers to keep night fighter geschwader at full strength.
It doesn't matter what authorised strength was or even what units were constituted. By your figures the Luftwaffe would have had an authorised strength of more than 200 night fighters in 1940. Infact it never had more than about 250 Bf 110s of all types at any time during the war.
NJG 2 (which was not a full Geschwader in 1940,nor incidentally was NJG 1) was not equipped with the Bf 110 but the Ju 88 and Do 17.
Cheers
Steve
parsifal
Colonel
plus night fighter groups early on were routinely of smaller size to their daylight counterparts. It is unlikely that the "authorized" strength for an NJG was anything like 100 a/c. training night capable crews is a tedious, slow process. Early on, it would not surprise me to find individual stafeln with "authorized" strengths of 4 or 5 a/c.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Hence the reason Me-110 escort fighters were overwhelmed during the BoB and (later) unable to protect German cities from RAF Bomber Command.
I suspect the much maligned Me-110 would work just fine if Germany produced enough of them and had an adequate supply of aviation gasoline. But the program must be established on a scale similiar to the Ju-88.
I suspect the much maligned Me-110 would work just fine if Germany produced enough of them and had an adequate supply of aviation gasoline. But the program must be established on a scale similiar to the Ju-88.
parsifal
Colonel
Dave, once again your ability to obtain the right facts, and then draw the wrong conclusions staggers me. Bf 110 production was not low priority. far from it. And that is reflected in its production history. Service delivery began in 1939, with 315 units being delivered by years end. In October Gotha and BMW were brought into the production program. In 1940, average production reached 102 units per month.
after the drubbing the type suffered in the BoB, production was temporaily reduced in 1940, in anticpation of the new replacement type, the me 210 replacing it. when this failed to occur , production was ramped back up, such that by wars end, 6170 units had been produced. That is not insignificant. In the context of 1939-40, there were many more Me 110s than there were Ju88s throughout 1939 and for a good part of 1940.
As to why the germans would give priority to the Ju88, the Ju88 by any standard was outstanding, whereas the me 110 was an aircraft with clear limits
after the drubbing the type suffered in the BoB, production was temporaily reduced in 1940, in anticpation of the new replacement type, the me 210 replacing it. when this failed to occur , production was ramped back up, such that by wars end, 6170 units had been produced. That is not insignificant. In the context of 1939-40, there were many more Me 110s than there were Ju88s throughout 1939 and for a good part of 1940.
As to why the germans would give priority to the Ju88, the Ju88 by any standard was outstanding, whereas the me 110 was an aircraft with clear limits
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Exactly,that was certainly the case with NJG 1 which was cobbled together from various units. The Bf 110s presumably came principally from ZG 76. The unit also operated some old Bf 109 Ds.
Training crews to fly at night,let alone fight at night,is indeed a time consuming process.
The time frame is relevant. In September 1941 the 41 night fighters on strength seems quite reasonable to counter the limited threat posed by the RAF. It would have been impossible to establish two complete Bf 110 equipped Geschwader in the autumn of 1940. There was a failiure of the supply organisation of the Luftwaffe to replace the losses incurred in the BoB.
John Vasco gives the example of Wilhelm Schaefer,Geschwaderadjutant of ZG 2,who did not fly a single mission between ditching in the Channel on 11th August 1940 and the mission on which he was shot down over England on 4th September 1940 simply because of a lack of aircraft in his unit.
Cheers
Steve
Neither statement is true. During the BoB the 110 was effective and gave good account and destroyed a large number of RAF fighters. The destoyer arm itself was badly mauled in the proccess, but that was largely because there were too few destroyers around and it generally fought in numerical disadvantage, and the losses taken effected the 110 units, few in number, than those of the numerous 109 units.
As for failing to protect German cities from BC - we should recall that Bomber Command's strategy essentially failed and was defeated during the Battle of Berlin in 1944. The Nachtjagd was winning the night while the Tagjagd was loosing the day at the same time.
As a night fighter its most obvious limitation was that the airframe was not designed for such tasked. The pure 110 lacked the range required for the task, and could only fullfill it with external stores , i.e. droptanks, cannon pods etc. hanging from every possible direction. A night fighter required plenty of loiter time, and the 110 simply did not have it, the Ju 88 OTOH had, since it was designed from the start with long range in mind (being a bomber and all). The good point of the 110 was first and foremost that it was available when needed, where needed, and could be modified for the task quickly. AFAIK it also had very docile landing and handling charachteristics, important for a night fighter which has to take off and land in bad visibility conditions. But the Ju 88 was far better suited for the task.
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Yes it was and to return to the original question the Me 210/410 was not. The decision was made in March 1943 not to develop the Me 210/410 as a night fighter.
Milch:
The Me 210 is not planned as a night fighter. It will only be used in the heavy fighter role and,on occasion,as a high speed bomber.The Me 410 is a heavy fighter with a fundamental secondary role of high speed bomber.
Reading both British and German accounts (from ZG 2 and ZG 76) I'm not sure I agree with the contention that the Bf 110s were fighting,typically,at a numerical disadvantage.They certainly,as I said earlier,usually fought at a tactical disadvantage. There were occasions on which an entire Geschwader of Bf 110s was confronted by a single Squadron of RAF fighters. It is also important to remember that the Bf 110s were not the primary target of RAF fighters,as Dowding had made quite clear.
Cheers
Steve
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Good post.
The Bf-110 (or any fighter, for that matter), when tasked with close escort is going to be mauled. Even more so when compared with lightweight contemporaries. The heavy 110, when flown at 20000 ft and at 'fighter' speeds is all another ball game vs. a 110 flying 15000 ft at 'bomber' speeds.
The Ju-88 have had it all to tackle BC's heavies - range, decent performance, space for fuel, electronics, both oblique and forward firing armament, being in production, while carrying many pairs of eyes. The benevolent handling was a must for the role, and it was present there, too.
mozart
Airman
The Bf110G-4s may have had their limitations and disadvantages, but it's interesting that Schnaufer opted to retain his Bf110 when he was promoted to Kommodore of NJG 4, a Geschwader that was equipped with Ju88s. According to Rumpelhardt, Schnaufer initially considered it important to fly the same aircraft as the rest of his men, but after a few daytime familiarisation trips followed by some problems with night take-offs, Schnaufer wasn't happy and decided not to fly one again.
Max
Max
Erich
the old Sage
Schnaufer post war admitted he was afraid of the Ju 88 G-6 which was superior to the 110G-4 in all aspects. I wish I had time to post my interviews with ace Peter Spoden on this question, as t would brimg better insight to the specifics. as Stona said earlier the 110 was not totally phased out, NJG's 1, 5 and 6 had the latest 110's in their line ups by wars end.
mozart
Airman
Erich.....I wish you had time to post your interviews with Peter too! I've met him but not, unfortunately, had the time for a protracted discussion.
Max
Max
davebender
1st Lieutenant
I wouldn't go that far. Nachtjagd shot down a lot of RAF bombers but not enough to put RAF Bomber Command out of business.
RAF Bomber Command was an immense program which cost over 12% of total British military spending. Germany would shoot down 50 bombers (and aircrew) only to see them replaced by a larger number of more capable aircraft. You cannot defeat them by half measures.
Nachtjagd were established during 1940. From that point the preferred night fighter aircraft (and aircrew) must be produced in numbers larger enough to keep NJGs at authorized strength. Anything less will result in RAF Bomber Command steamrolling German defenses, just as eventually happened during 1944 to 1945.
RAF Bomber Command was an immense program which cost over 12% of total British military spending. Germany would shoot down 50 bombers (and aircrew) only to see them replaced by a larger number of more capable aircraft. You cannot defeat them by half measures.
Nachtjagd were established during 1940. From that point the preferred night fighter aircraft (and aircrew) must be produced in numbers larger enough to keep NJGs at authorized strength. Anything less will result in RAF Bomber Command steamrolling German defenses, just as eventually happened during 1944 to 1945.
Erich
the old Sage
Max
I just may come after the new year...........
Dave you are correct after the RAF disaster over Nuremburg the loss %'s did fall with only scant so-called success's during 1945, the NJG's were grounded, their A/F's torn to pieces both day and night, too may raw recruits, shall we say pinned in from both west/east. Even with single and twin seat 262's trying in vain to shoo Mossies........what a waste.............
interested folk purchase the dual volume set by Dr. Theo Boiten/Rod McKenzie > Nachtjagd War Diaries < updated completely in 2015.
I just may come after the new year...........
Dave you are correct after the RAF disaster over Nuremburg the loss %'s did fall with only scant so-called success's during 1945, the NJG's were grounded, their A/F's torn to pieces both day and night, too may raw recruits, shall we say pinned in from both west/east. Even with single and twin seat 262's trying in vain to shoo Mossies........what a waste.............
interested folk purchase the dual volume set by Dr. Theo Boiten/Rod McKenzie > Nachtjagd War Diaries < updated completely in 2015.
mozart
Airman
Good news Erich.....I'll keep looking.
I bought my volumes of the Nachtjagd War Diaries on launch day, Telford November 2008 - they're signed by Theo, Rod, Peter Spoden and Rolf Ebhardt and are frequently used, invaluable!
Max
That's true but it was a problem for the entire Luftwaffe. They never had enough aircraft or trained men to fly them. It's why they lost the air war and partly why Germany lost the war. It's been covered in other threads. The lack of planning and muddle of aircraft production,which only started to sorted out after the appointment of Milch,meant that Germany was literally years behind the Anglo-American alliance. Williamson Murray's "Strategy for Defeat" probably covers it as well as any readily available publication.
The night fighters certainly made the RAF pay for its ultimate success. Even the official Bomber Command history concedes that the Battle of Berlin was a defeat. I think it is fair to say that the German night defences,obviously including the night fighters,did have the upper hand for a long period. Ultimately,as you say,they were overwhelmed.
Cheers
Steve
