Why was the Bf 110 obsolete as a night fighter

[davebender]

Lovett Artillery - 10,5 cm. leichte Feld Haubitze l.F.H. 1916
An excellent article on development of German 10.5cm Kanone. It's readily apparent the Heer developed doctrine for duel use of AA weapons 30 years before the start of WWII.

 

[mozart]

My I kindly suggest the separate thread about the ongoing off-topic matter?

I'm afraid I agree - this esoteric, and not terribly interesting (since it got into the realms of armament costs etc) thread should be continued elsewhere. Now if somebody could tell me the disposition of flak units (or dare I say, a source for) around Ladbergen/Dortmund-Ems canal, I'd be immensely grateful!!!

Max

 

[hedge hopper]

The best WW2 Nightfighters as far as I'm concerned were both British! The Beaufighter and Mosquito !!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The best WW2 Nightfighters as far as I'm concerned were both British! The Beaufighter and Mosquito !!

You must be just forgetting about the Ju 88. Oh wait can't be, it is not British...

 

[stona]

The best WW2 Nightfighters as far as I'm concerned were both British! The Beaufighter and Mosquito !!

The He 219 could and did catch the odd Mosquito

Steve

 

[Erich]

you got that right Chris .............

Stona 12 to be exact for the He 219 but the Bf 110G-4 also did and believe it or not my cousin caught one over the isle of Sylt in his old funky Do 217N in 1943, also one cannot forget the single engine Bf 109G-6/AS of 1./NJGr 10 and 10.(N)/JG 300 and the 262's of Kommando Welter.

 

[stona]

Yep and I believe (if my memory is correct ) that Bf 110s were still shooting Beaufighters down over the Bay of Biscay in 1945!
Steve

 

[Erich]

not too sure about that Stona would that be covered in Chris Goss's book on the Biscay battles ?

interviewed at some length a NF ace of NJG 2 who shot down 2 Beufighters at night in his Ju 88G-6, he has covered the A/C and codes fairly well with descriptions of the engagements and the downings. am thinking this may be good for my future title......... at some point. T. Boiten has confirmed at least one of the shoot downs in his volumes.

 

[Glider]

Going back to the original question it was my understanding that the Me110's main problem was its short range when carrying all the extra equipment.

Its performance ie speed etc was good enough but it was range that was the main problem.

As for the Bay of Biscay as far as I know Me110's were not normally (if ever) used in this area, the long range fighter over the Bay of biscay was the ju88 and they treated the Beaufighter with considerable caution.
IIRC, Standing orders for Ju88 crews was not to engage the Beaufighter in combat unless they had a clear advantage in numbers or tactical position.

Both the Beaufighter and the Me110 remained effective nightfighters for the entire war period, but both took second place to later Mosquito or Ju88 nightfighters

 

[stona]

e Bay of Biscay as far as I know Me110's were not normally (if ever) used in this area, the long range fighter over the Bay of biscay was the ju88 and they treated the Beaufighter with considerable caution.

Yes,bad memory,it was Bf 110s of 13.(Z)/JG 5 based in Norway in what passes for daylight up there in February.They were attempting to protect coastal shipping and installations

Even my bad geography knows that's a long way from Biscay!

I agree that the Bf 110 remained an effective nightfighter up to the end. It was ultimately outdone by the Ju88,both were outclassed by the Mosquito. The Mosquito's superiority is the reason that Kammhuber kept the He 219 alive in the face of Milch's indecision.

Steve

 

[Erich]

actually Steve the He 219 creation was for a long range powerful armed NF to combat the 4-eninges, it was rather by chance the He 219's like other German NF's engaged the Mossie deliberately in fact it was only the S/E's that I mentioned earlier that were designated anti-mossie units and later Kommando Welter.

the Ju 88G-6 was superior to the 110G-4 due to size, lower belly arms, visibility, more eyes to counter Mossie NF's, longer range, thus more fuel carried for the long haul, non cramped quarters for 3-4 crewmembers, could carry the latest LW radar gadgets....... this is of course just a brief from several LW crews that I have interviewed over many years.

 

[stona]

Development of the He 219,typically for any German project,went through many variations as the goal posts kept moving.

The He 219 was already being produced (the A-0 series) when the Ju 88 G was at an experimental stage,around December '43.

The A-6 was specifically a Mosquito hunter and was lightened for the task. It's take off weight was nearly a tonne less than the A-2 and nearly two tonnes less than the proposed three man A-5. The Luftwaffe seems to have been somewhat obsessed with the Mosquito and the He 219s ability to catch them (on a good night) was used time and time again by Kammhuber,von Lossberg and others to keep the type in production.

One report (which wrongly imagined a Griffon powered Mosquito to have been developed) said:

"....The Do 335 nightfighter cannot be expected to enter service before the fall of the year [1945].As the fastest aircraft available the He 219 is the only suitable aircraft for intercepting the Mosquito."

Noone at the time took the Me 262 very seriously as a nightfighter. References to its limited range are very frequent.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Erich]

Steve

remember the He 219A-6 never got off the ground it was an experimental model only, sure the Uhu was used to chase mossies like every other LW A/C at night if they could engage then do it from a height advantage.

 

[spicmart]

I thought that the He 219 did not have the performance necessary to best the Mossie because it was underpowered and too heavy? According to Erich Brown it did not. So were its successes against british nightfighters just hyperbole or true?
If so what made the He 219 a better nightfighter than the Ju 88 and Me110 to intercept the Mosquito?

 

[mhuxt]

you got that right Chris .............

Stona 12 to be exact for the He 219 but the Bf 110G-4 also did and believe it or not my cousin caught one over the isle of Sylt in his old funky Do 217N in 1943, also one cannot forget the single engine Bf 109G-6/AS of 1./NJGr 10 and 10.(N)/JG 300 and the 262's of Kommando Welter.

Hiyas E,

My count for the 219 is 10 Mossies - Fincke's escaped and was able to rtb, and I believe the entry for Struening on 19 July which appears on some lists is in error. I believe it's a duplicate from the previous evening when both Struening and Wittman claimed a Mossie, in the same area and at the same time, with only a single Mossie lost. Struening's name doesn't appear on Tony Woods' list for the following night, nor is there a loss that night.

All the best for 2013.

 

[Erich]

yes you are correct according to me . . . . .

it was not a high performance crate for Mossie interception I./NJG 1 could only claim 12 Mossies but the question is how many Uhu's were shot down by the RAF/Aussies flying Mossie NF's ? one of the biggest failures in Uhu production was the lack of a rearward radar system standard on the Ju 88G-6 and no rear facing mg for self defense even if a small deterrent it was something.

Mark Merry Christmas to you yes we should all wait for Marcel H's continued intensive efforts on I./NJG 1 flying out of Venlo the man has the work on the Uhu and the figures and the interviews of former NJG 1 crews.

 

[mhuxt]

I thought that the He 219 did not have the performance necessary to best the Mossie because it was underpowered and too heavy? According to Erich Brown it did not. So were its successes against british nightfighters just hyperbole or true?
If so what made the He 219 a better nightfighter than the Ju 88 and Me110 to intercept the Mosquito?

The 219 didn't account for any nightfighters - all bombers. Armed Mosquitos on the other hand claimed 18 219s, I've strong matches for 14 of the claims, though I haven't made a systematic effort.

The successes of the 219 (as with all other aircraft, no doubt) depended on the circumstances, one Mossie was described as a straggler, the one which escaped from Fincke had been on one engine. Even though the 219 was slower than generally thought, it seems to have been quicker than its NJ contemporaries.

If the 219 happened to be in the right place (in terms of location and height) at the right time, and the Mossie wasn't aware of it, the 219 could use its top speed against the Mossie's cruise. Had to be close though, Nabrich flogged one of his engines to death to catch up for his second.

 

[davebender]

What difference does that make?

German night fighter force was tasked with shooting down heavy bombers. Mosquitoes were shot down only if one happened to cross your path which wasn't very often.

 

[Erich]

actually not true. herr Goebbels was so infatuated with the Mossie and so was the fat man over Berlin proper that written orders were up to form anti-Mossie squads to take on the invading LSNF. the myth that proports the Uhu as a famous Mossie killer has been around since the 1950's and makes some interesting conversation but as I stated earlier the Uhu was not originally created for these operations.

 

[parsifal]

plus the mere threat from Mosquitos, flying in the incoming streams and masquerading as a bomber, caused the LW night crews a great deal of stress. That and the activities of the Night intruders (particularly the Canadians), that hovered around the known LW air bases, is believed to forced the accident rate for LW crews through the roof. You cannot aerobat a night fighter as much as a day crate. if you do, you need a lot of skill to recover the aircraft in the pitch dark. Many crews in the NJGs by 1944 were not that experienced. a few were exceptional, but many were new to the job. And they suffered as a consequence.

The Germans spent a lot of time and effort working out countermeasures. Like ecerything there was a see-saw effect as firstly one side and then the other gained an advantage.

But RAF Night Fighters were a factor in the LW NF attrition rates, Not all losses were a direct result of being shot down